Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Ed Cook
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000193A
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is the program that brings you discussion, news, views 00:27 and up-to-date information on Religious Liberty, 00:30 around the world and in the Untied States. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on the program is Dr. Ed Cook. 00:39 Glad to be here with you. Welcome, Ed. 00:42 You and I've had relationship over many, many years 00:44 and I've been--not only stimulated by talking things 00:48 over with you, but I've been impressed to realize 00:51 that you've been studying toward and now have 00:53 a doctorate in church-state studies.That's correct. 00:56 I've spent 6 years studying at Baylor University 00:59 and just recently graduated-- Waco, Texas, right. 01:01 Correct, yeah. Now there's not too many people in the circle 01:05 that I deal in that have a doctorate in this area. 01:08 And of course, it's vital to me, church-state studies. 01:11 And I think anybody that's followed recent 01:14 political events, at least the presidential election knows 01:17 that there's a lot of religion talk, isn't it? Definitely. 01:20 And I think too many people are not very clear on 01:23 how church and state should relate to each other. 01:27 What have you found as you've gotten into the study? 01:30 How is it sharpened your understanding 01:33 of what's going on in this world? 01:34 This is--as I say, there's a general confusion 01:36 among people as to what church-state 01:39 issues really involved. 01:41 Let me--I'll share with you a little bit about, 01:43 you know, my time in Baylor. 01:45 Historically, Baptist have a very--they've maintained 01:48 a separationist position. 01:50 And that is something that the Dawson Institute 01:52 has been in the existence for a little over 50 years. 01:55 And that's the institute that granted my degree. 01:57 This which is within Baylor University? Correct. 02:00 It's sort of a school of church-state studies. 02:02 That's exactly right. The Dawson Institute. 02:04 Yeah, they have a specific focus on church and state relations. 02:07 And basically it's the degree they offer in the PhD 02:11 is different than--it's not like a PhD 02:13 in history or PhD in philosophy. 02:15 It's very narrowly focused to involve the interaction 02:18 between the individual and government regarding 02:21 their religious convictions or like thereof. 02:23 And so based on that, it draws from a variety of disciplines, 02:27 philosophy, history, religion, political science, 02:29 constitutional law to understand the dynamic between 02:32 the individual or the group of believers 02:35 and their relationship to the civil power or government. 02:38 It's good that you've bring that up because 02:40 not just in your studies, Liberty magazine 02:43 and the way we present it, that's really--the threads 02:46 that inform a religious liberty understanding. 02:49 This isn't-- a one dimensional thing. 02:50 It isn't just because we have a few Bible texts 02:53 that compel us to defend other people's religious liberty. 02:57 Correct. It isn't just because the constitution says. 03:00 It isn't just because the lessons 03:02 of history are so clear like with the inquisition and so on. 03:05 Sure. But put together I think there's 03:07 a--it's not usually used in this but I think 03:10 there's a seamless garment of religious liberty logic. 03:13 Correct. It provides a very broad protection 03:16 for the liberties of the-- conscience of the individual. 03:19 And I think that the point that you just highlighted 03:21 is one of the main things that there's a lack of understanding 03:25 among people and not just in America 03:26 but other countries as well. 03:28 They don't recognize that it's not just religion 03:31 that determines the religious freedom 03:34 or the liberty of conscience of the individual. 03:36 You've got to draw upon 03:37 philosophical ideas, upon history. 03:39 As you've mentioned looking back 03:41 and seeing quite dominant religions 03:43 have been more aggressive in maintaining their territory. 03:47 So when one understands all of those dimensions of the dynamic, 03:50 one can easily say, "well, you know, if religion 03:53 is the only thing that we're going to use to determine 03:55 the liberty of conscience of the individual, 03:58 which religion is going to be dominant?" 03:59 And so once we understand that religion 04:02 can't determine that, we've got to go into the philosophical end 04:04 and say there's got to be something else 04:07 that were used to establish peace and harmony in society. 04:10 Well, I won't run at the ground now but I think 04:12 we've a later program on which religion will be dominant 04:14 when we talk about religious liberty. 04:16 That is more and more becoming an issue. 04:18 You mentioned the Baptist and of course, 04:20 Baylor is a Baptist institution. 04:22 But I don't think Baptist speak with one voice anymore. 04:25 You go back to early Americana and yes the Baptist vision 04:29 of religious freedom was quite clear. 04:30 Well, Isaac Backus and others had a very clear understanding 04:34 that informed, I think, church-state separation 04:36 for many decades but not anymore. 04:38 Where are they now? 04:40 You know, as I mentioned historically baptism 04:42 and seperationist due to John Leland, Isaac Backus 04:45 and others even up to the 20th century. 04:48 And back at the time that Leland and Backus 04:51 were active advocating the rights of Baptist 04:54 especially among congregationalist establishments 04:57 in the colonial colonies over there 04:59 on the east coast of America. 05:01 The Baptist being a minority they've fought for their rights. 05:04 And over the years from that time to the present 05:06 they've grown enough so that they've got a significant 05:09 population here in America of believers. 05:11 Now can I interject? Sure. 05:13 Because this is a perfect time. 05:15 One of the more pivotal moments in early 05:18 American history on church-state was the letter 05:21 that Jefferson wrote to the Baptist. Danbury Baptist. 05:26 Danbury Baptist, where he invoked that term 05:28 that is now just despised by many religionist in the U.S. 05:32 He said that the first amendment was to erect-- 05:34 Wall of separation. 05:36 A wall of--well actually, he didn't say the first amendment. 05:37 It was the Virginia statute which was the parallel 05:40 because he did both to erect the wall of separation 05:43 between church and state. Correct. 05:44 So back then they were in the thick of things 05:47 in establishing the religious understanding 05:50 in this new republic. Yes. 05:51 Yeah, and then they also influenced James Madison 05:54 and his understanding and formulating 05:56 the first and what's now known 05:57 as the first amendment of religion freedom. 05:59 Let me throw in another more recent illustration to--for you 06:03 to run with and explain the difference. 06:06 We had a Religious Liberty dinner early this year. 06:09 Well, depends where this is shown but early in 2012 06:13 and we honored for reasons of public service 06:18 not because we were endorsing all of his position. 06:20 But we honored Dr. Richard Land the--I think 06:24 one of the titles is Ethicist for the Southern Baptist. 06:27 And he's very prominent on Religious Liberty issues. 06:30 Also at the dinner with a number of representatives 06:34 of the Baptist joint committee that we work closely 06:37 with and often print articles from them, 06:39 they're strict seperationist. 06:42 I can't say that about Richard Land. 06:44 What I can say is in his own words he was on C-span 06:47 a few months earlier than that dinner. 06:48 And he said that he's unap--well, I don't think 06:51 he used the word unapologetic but he acted unapologetic 06:54 about being an American exceptionlist. 06:56 That's what he said. 06:57 So at the dinner I asked him--I said, "what," I know 06:59 the difference myself, but I wanted to him do define it. 07:02 I said "what's the difference between your vision 07:05 of Religious Liberty and-- the Baptist Joint Committee?" 07:08 And he says, "well, I'm more into establishment 07:13 and they're more into free exercise." Yeah. 07:16 And I think that is essential for one to understand 07:20 the dynamic or the difference between 07:23 establishment and free exercise. 07:25 Those two clauses were designed to compliment 07:27 one another so that to the extent that no religion 07:30 is established that guarantees 07:32 the free exercise of the individual. 07:34 The moment that one clause is compromised 07:36 that effects the other one. 07:38 And so what Richard Land was stating is that they adopt 07:40 more of an establishment position. 07:42 That's correct, that from their view they believe 07:44 that they should establish, have more of an establishment 07:48 of Christianity in essence is what I would 07:50 argue for from their prospective. 07:53 What Brent Walker and others from 07:54 the Baptist Joint Committee, they look at more 07:56 of a seperationist position, advocating 07:58 the rights of the freedom of the individual, 08:00 their individual conscience. 08:02 But let me share with you a little bit 08:03 of the historical background though. 08:05 Viewers need to hear this. 08:07 This is why you are here. 08:08 The current period that we're in, back in the '60s and '70s 08:14 there was a lot of agitation, social agitation regarding, 08:17 you know, ethical issues of abortion. 08:20 Aspects of the Catholic Church came out with Humanae Vitae 08:24 talking about basically against the use of contraception 08:28 and recognizing the sanctity of human life. 08:31 Now their influence, the catholic influence, 08:34 among evangelicals in America in the following 08:36 decades ended up leading the southern Baptist 08:40 which at that time were united in their understanding 08:42 of separation of church and state. 08:44 They maintained that position. 08:45 But as catholic ideas and debates and arguments 08:48 started entering in among the evangelicals 08:50 in the Southern Baptist Group they began to have divisiveness 08:54 on the issue, leading up into the early '90s 08:57 they actually had a break, a separation 08:59 among those two groups. 09:00 So that now there's two camps that have developed. 09:03 Those that are more evangelical that would line up 09:06 with social and ethical issues like abortion and other things 09:09 and their desire to see Christianity established 09:13 and influencing social policy in America. 09:16 On the other side of the issue you have more 09:19 of historical Baptist that maintained 09:20 a seperationist position because 09:22 they understand historically. 09:24 There is--the history records it. 09:27 The danger of government uniting so closely with religion 09:30 that it becomes an establishment. 09:33 So when did the--the break really take place 09:36 within the Southern Baptist then? 09:37 That was in the early in the early '90s, 09:39 when they actually had a distinct separation-- 09:41 But the issues that led to that split 09:44 in the '90s began in the '60s, is that what you say? Correct. 09:47 Yeah, the '60s is a very pivotal time for me. 09:49 And one day I'm gonna devote a whole program to it. 09:52 So many things changed in the '60s. 09:56 But even in both their iterations Baptists 09:59 are very active in talking about Religious Liberty. 10:02 They just take it in some different direction-- 10:04 Let me mention with you just a little personal experience 10:07 I had there at Baylor. 10:08 And this is what I really appreciate about 10:10 Baylor University is that they would align themselves 10:14 more with the idea of the-- respecting 10:16 the freedom of conscience of the individual. 10:19 And when I was studying there as a student 10:20 they recognized me from my faith background. 10:23 And when I came to the point of graduation 10:26 they had their services on Saturday, 10:28 myself having convictions about that, that I wouldn't be there. 10:32 And what I did-- You're Seventh-day Adventist 10:34 so you keep the biblical seventh day service. Correct. 10:36 Yes, I observe the biblical Sabbath. 10:38 On Friday night through till Saturday night. Correct. 10:41 And so based on that I sent in a petition 10:44 several--actually the summertime 10:46 they didn't have anything scheduled. 10:48 No graduation scheduled for Friday. 10:49 It was only going to be on Saturday. 10:51 And so I thought, well, I just want to march and, you know, 10:54 I'll be at church on that day. 10:55 And I was happy with that. 10:57 They would send me--they would end up 10:58 mailing me my certificate, my diploma I should say. 11:01 Based on that I waited through the summer months 11:03 and it turned out that one month before 11:05 graduation they actually had some seminary students 11:08 that were going to graduate on Friday. 11:10 So they planned two graduation services. 11:12 When I learned of that I sent in a request by email 11:14 asking if they would accommodate me. 11:16 And about two weeks later I got a response. 11:18 They said we would be glad to go ahead 11:20 and make an accommodation for a brother in Christ. 11:22 And they allowed me to march on Friday--That's very good. 11:24 They did that--I mean not although, that was wonderful. 11:28 If they had not--I really would have trouble understanding 11:33 why you're graduating from church-state studies here. 11:35 The first act would be to challenge your convictions. 11:38 But I think that was very appropriate what they did. 11:42 And they even took time during the graduation service itself. 11:45 I'll mention this. 11:47 You know when we honor God He honors us. 11:49 And sure enough what happened is that the dean 11:52 actually came by and asked me, "would you mind if I make 11:55 a few preliminary comments at the beginning 11:57 just to let the audience and the staff at the seminary 12:01 understand why we're allowing somebody 12:03 with--as a PhD candidate march with our seminarians?" 12:06 Because normally he said, we only have--he said 12:09 historically we've never had a PhD person march 12:11 with the people that have like academia, 12:14 and a masters degrees in theology 12:16 and so forth because it's more-- 12:17 So they made a public expedition of that. 12:19 He did and he said that--he said we recognize 12:22 our brother in Christ and Seventh-day Adventist. 12:25 He's gonna be in church tomorrow. 12:26 And so we've made accommodations for him 12:27 to be here today and march with them. 12:29 That's wonderful. And I really think 12:30 the Lord--there's no question the Lord was leading 12:32 you through these studies. 12:34 And the knowledge you've gained 12:35 is going to be very valuable to our Religious Liberty work. 12:38 Sure. We'll be back after a short break to continue 12:40 this discussion with Dr. Ed Cook. 12:43 His studies of church-state relations and perhaps, 12:45 what that means to all of us in the outside world 12:50 as we look at events that are moving so rapidly. 12:53 We'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17