Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the program that brings
you discussion, news, views
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and up-to-date information
on Religious Liberty,
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around the world and
in the Untied States.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Dr. Ed Cook.
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Glad to be here
with you. Welcome, Ed.
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You and I've had relationship
over many, many years
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and I've been--not only
stimulated by talking things
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over with you, but I've
been impressed to realize
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that you've been
studying toward and now have
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a doctorate in church-state
studies.That's correct.
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I've spent 6 years
studying at Baylor University
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and just recently
graduated-- Waco, Texas, right.
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Correct, yeah. Now there's not
too many people in the circle
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that I deal in that have
a doctorate in this area.
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And of course, it's vital
to me, church-state studies.
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And I think anybody
that's followed recent
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political events, at least
the presidential election knows
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that there's a lot of religion
talk, isn't it? Definitely.
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And I think too many
people are not very clear on
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how church and state
should relate to each other.
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What have you found as
you've gotten into the study?
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How is it
sharpened your understanding
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of what's going
on in this world?
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This is--as I say,
there's a general confusion
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among people as
to what church-state
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issues really involved.
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Let me--I'll share
with you a little bit about,
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you know, my time in Baylor.
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Historically, Baptist
have a very--they've maintained
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a separationist position.
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And that is something
that the Dawson Institute
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has been in the existence
for a little over 50 years.
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And that's the institute
that granted my degree.
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This which is within
Baylor University? Correct.
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It's sort of a school
of church-state studies.
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That's exactly
right. The Dawson Institute.
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Yeah, they have a specific focus
on church and state relations.
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And basically it's the
degree they offer in the PhD
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is different
than--it's not like a PhD
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in history or PhD in philosophy.
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It's very narrowly focused
to involve the interaction
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between the individual
and government regarding
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their religious
convictions or like thereof.
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And so based on that, it draws
from a variety of disciplines,
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philosophy, history,
religion, political science,
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constitutional law to
understand the dynamic between
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the individual or
the group of believers
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and their relationship to
the civil power or government.
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It's good that
you've bring that up because
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not just in your
studies, Liberty magazine
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and the way we present
it, that's really--the threads
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that inform a
religious liberty understanding.
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This isn't-- a
one dimensional thing.
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It isn't just because
we have a few Bible texts
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that compel us to defend other
people's religious liberty.
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Correct. It isn't just
because the constitution says.
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It isn't just
because the lessons
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of history are so clear like
with the inquisition and so on.
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Sure. But put
together I think there's
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a--it's not usually
used in this but I think
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there's a seamless garment
of religious liberty logic.
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Correct. It provides
a very broad protection
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for the liberties of the--
conscience of the individual.
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And I think that the
point that you just highlighted
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is one of the main things that
there's a lack of understanding
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among people and
not just in America
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but other countries as well.
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They don't recognize
that it's not just religion
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that determines
the religious freedom
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or the liberty of
conscience of the individual.
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You've got to draw upon
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philosophical
ideas, upon history.
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As you've mentioned looking back
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and seeing quite
dominant religions
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have been more aggressive
in maintaining their territory.
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So when one understands all of
those dimensions of the dynamic,
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one can easily say,
"well, you know, if religion
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is the only thing that
we're going to use to determine
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the liberty of
conscience of the individual,
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which religion is
going to be dominant?"
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And so once we
understand that religion
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can't determine that, we've got
to go into the philosophical end
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and say there's got
to be something else
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that were used to establish
peace and harmony in society.
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Well, I won't run at
the ground now but I think
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we've a later program on
which religion will be dominant
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when we talk
about religious liberty.
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That is more and
more becoming an issue.
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You mentioned the
Baptist and of course,
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Baylor is a Baptist institution.
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But I don't think Baptist
speak with one voice anymore.
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You go back to early Americana
and yes the Baptist vision
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of religious
freedom was quite clear.
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Well, Isaac Backus and others
had a very clear understanding
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that informed, I
think, church-state separation
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for many
decades but not anymore.
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Where are they now?
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You know, as I
mentioned historically baptism
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and seperationist due to
John Leland, Isaac Backus
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and others even up
to the 20th century.
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And back at the time
that Leland and Backus
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were active
advocating the rights of Baptist
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especially among
congregationalist establishments
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in the colonial
colonies over there
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on the east coast of America.
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The Baptist being a minority
they've fought for their rights.
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And over the years from
that time to the present
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they've grown enough so
that they've got a significant
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population here in
America of believers.
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Now can I interject? Sure.
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Because this is a perfect time.
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One of the more
pivotal moments in early
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American history on
church-state was the letter
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that Jefferson wrote to
the Baptist. Danbury Baptist.
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Danbury Baptist,
where he invoked that term
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that is now just despised
by many religionist in the U.S.
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He said that the first
amendment was to erect--
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Wall of separation.
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A wall of--well actually, he
didn't say the first amendment.
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It was the Virginia
statute which was the parallel
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because he did both to
erect the wall of separation
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between church
and state. Correct.
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So back then they
were in the thick of things
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in establishing the
religious understanding
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in this new republic. Yes.
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Yeah, and then they
also influenced James Madison
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and his
understanding and formulating
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the first and what's now known
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as the first
amendment of religion freedom.
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Let me throw in another more
recent illustration to--for you
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to run with and
explain the difference.
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We had a Religious
Liberty dinner early this year.
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Well, depends where this
is shown but early in 2012
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and we honored for
reasons of public service
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not because we were
endorsing all of his position.
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But we honored Dr.
Richard Land the--I think
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one of the titles is Ethicist
for the Southern Baptist.
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And he's very prominent
on Religious Liberty issues.
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Also at the dinner with
a number of representatives
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of the Baptist joint
committee that we work closely
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with and often
print articles from them,
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they're strict seperationist.
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I can't say that
about Richard Land.
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What I can say is in his
own words he was on C-span
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a few months
earlier than that dinner.
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And he said that he's
unap--well, I don't think
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he used the word unapologetic
but he acted unapologetic
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about being an
American exceptionlist.
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That's what he said.
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So at the dinner I asked
him--I said, "what," I know
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the difference myself, but
I wanted to him do define it.
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I said "what's the
difference between your vision
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of Religious Liberty and--
the Baptist Joint Committee?"
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And he says, "well,
I'm more into establishment
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and they're more
into free exercise." Yeah.
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And I think that is
essential for one to understand
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the dynamic or
the difference between
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establishment and free exercise.
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Those two clauses
were designed to compliment
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one another so that to
the extent that no religion
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is established that guarantees
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the free exercise
of the individual.
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The moment that one
clause is compromised
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that effects the other one.
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And so what Richard Land
was stating is that they adopt
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more of an
establishment position.
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That's correct, that
from their view they believe
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that they should establish,
have more of an establishment
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of Christianity in
essence is what I would
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argue for from
their prospective.
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What Brent
Walker and others from
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the Baptist Joint
Committee, they look at more
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of a seperationist
position, advocating
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the rights of the
freedom of the individual,
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their individual conscience.
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But let me share
with you a little bit
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of the historical
background though.
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Viewers need to hear this.
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This is why you are here.
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The current period that we're
in, back in the '60s and '70s
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there was a lot of agitation,
social agitation regarding,
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you know, ethical
issues of abortion.
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Aspects of the Catholic Church
came out with Humanae Vitae
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talking about basically
against the use of contraception
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and recognizing the
sanctity of human life.
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Now their influence,
the catholic influence,
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among evangelicals in
America in the following
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decades ended up
leading the southern Baptist
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which at that time were
united in their understanding
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of separation of
church and state.
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They maintained that position.
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But as catholic ideas
and debates and arguments
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started entering in
among the evangelicals
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in the Southern Baptist Group
they began to have divisiveness
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on the issue, leading
up into the early '90s
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they actually had
a break, a separation
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among those two groups.
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So that now there's two
camps that have developed.
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Those that are more
evangelical that would line up
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with social and ethical issues
like abortion and other things
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and their desire to see
Christianity established
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and influencing
social policy in America.
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On the other side of
the issue you have more
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of historical
Baptist that maintained
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a seperationist position because
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they understand historically.
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There is--the
history records it.
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The danger of government
uniting so closely with religion
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that it becomes
an establishment.
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So when did the--the
break really take place
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within the
Southern Baptist then?
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That was in the
early in the early '90s,
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when they actually had
a distinct separation--
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But the issues
that led to that split
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in the '90s began in the '60s,
is that what you say? Correct.
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Yeah, the '60s is a
very pivotal time for me.
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And one day I'm gonna
devote a whole program to it.
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So many things
changed in the '60s.
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But even in both
their iterations Baptists
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are very active in
talking about Religious Liberty.
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They just take it in
some different direction--
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Let me mention with you just
a little personal experience
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I had there at Baylor.
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And this is what I
really appreciate about
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Baylor University is that
they would align themselves
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more with the idea
of the-- respecting
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the freedom of
conscience of the individual.
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And when I was
studying there as a student
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they recognized me
from my faith background.
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And when I came to
the point of graduation
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they had their
services on Saturday,
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myself having convictions about
that, that I wouldn't be there.
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And what I did--
You're Seventh-day Adventist
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so you keep the biblical
seventh day service. Correct.
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Yes, I observe
the biblical Sabbath.
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On Friday night through
till Saturday night. Correct.
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And so based on
that I sent in a petition
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several--actually the summertime
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they didn't have
anything scheduled.
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No graduation
scheduled for Friday.
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It was only going
to be on Saturday.
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And so I thought, well, I just
want to march and, you know,
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I'll be at church on that day.
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And I was happy with that.
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They would send
me--they would end up
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mailing me my certificate,
my diploma I should say.
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Based on that I waited
through the summer months
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and it turned out
that one month before
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graduation they actually
had some seminary students
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that were going to
graduate on Friday.
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So they planned two
graduation services.
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When I learned of that I
sent in a request by email
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asking if they
would accommodate me.
00:11:14.61\00:11:16.17
And about two weeks
later I got a response.
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They said we would
be glad to go ahead
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and make an accommodation
for a brother in Christ.
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And they allowed me to march
on Friday--That's very good.
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They did that--I mean not
although, that was wonderful.
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If they had not--I really
would have trouble understanding
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why you're graduating
from church-state studies here.
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The first act would be to
challenge your convictions.
00:11:35.52\00:11:38.69
But I think that was very
appropriate what they did.
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And they even took time during
the graduation service itself.
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I'll mention this.
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You know when we
honor God He honors us.
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And sure enough what
happened is that the dean
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actually came by and asked
me, "would you mind if I make
00:11:52.26\00:11:55.13
a few preliminary
comments at the beginning
00:11:55.16\00:11:57.85
just to let the audience
and the staff at the seminary
00:11:57.88\00:12:01.73
understand why
we're allowing somebody
00:12:01.76\00:12:03.94
with--as a PhD candidate
march with our seminarians?"
00:12:03.97\00:12:06.80
Because normally he
said, we only have--he said
00:12:06.83\00:12:09.20
historically we've
never had a PhD person march
00:12:09.23\00:12:11.84
with the people
that have like academia,
00:12:11.87\00:12:14.27
and a masters
degrees in theology
00:12:14.30\00:12:16.05
and so forth because it's more--
00:12:16.08\00:12:17.57
So they made a
public expedition of that.
00:12:17.60\00:12:19.04
He did and he said
that--he said we recognize
00:12:19.07\00:12:22.75
our brother in Christ
and Seventh-day Adventist.
00:12:22.78\00:12:25.02
He's gonna be
in church tomorrow.
00:12:25.05\00:12:26.42
And so we've made
accommodations for him
00:12:26.45\00:12:27.82
to be here today
and march with them.
00:12:27.85\00:12:29.56
That's wonderful.
And I really think
00:12:29.59\00:12:30.96
the Lord--there's no
question the Lord was leading
00:12:30.99\00:12:32.82
you through these studies.
00:12:32.85\00:12:34.22
And the knowledge you've gained
00:12:34.25\00:12:35.78
is going to be very valuable
to our Religious Liberty work.
00:12:35.81\00:12:38.12
Sure. We'll be back
after a short break to continue
00:12:38.15\00:12:40.60
this discussion
with Dr. Ed Cook.
00:12:40.63\00:12:43.06
His studies of church-state
relations and perhaps,
00:12:43.09\00:12:45.93
what that means to all
of us in the outside world
00:12:45.96\00:12:50.47
as we look at events
that are moving so rapidly.
00:12:50.50\00:12:53.41
We'll be right back.
00:12:53.44\00:12:55.47