Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reid
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000191B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 This is Lincoln Steed again with my guest, Melissa Reid. 00:11 Before the break with Melissa we were probably antagonizing 00:14 a few people, but hopefully clarifying an issue 00:17 by giving as example or exhibit political involvement 00:22 by Churches around the catholic ad. 00:25 Right, right. 00:26 The--the, you know, I understand where they're coming from. 00:29 They have been trouble by this health care issue with-- 00:33 they made I think, bigger than the government made 00:35 and there's sort of concerns issue, 00:37 But now there's clearly all that effort 00:40 to encourage Catholics to vote against this administration. 00:44 Right, right. No, I think 00:45 we're bringing that up because we do so value 00:48 the instruction of our faith leaders, you know, 00:51 and so we feel like it should really be done 00:54 with the best interests of Church members and properly. 00:57 We're just saying that it should be done properly. 00:58 Now but that raises the question in my mind, 01:01 political involvement by the Church. 01:06 But there is another side to it. 01:10 Theological thinking by the state, 01:13 which can also involve the Church and--and as I look 01:18 at United States and its foreign policy 01:22 certainly since the early 70s 01:27 more and more I see mixed in with the 01:31 assumptions that characterize 01:32 some of the Evangelicals in United States, 01:34 their in-time scenarios and the role of Israel. Right. 01:38 And the rest of the world sees that and often 01:42 I think they write it larger than it is. 01:44 It's not the only reason, but I think it's muddied in there. 01:47 I remember Ronald Reagan getting up and told about 01:51 the evil empire which is not anything to do with Israel. 01:53 But, you know, he applied the evil empire 01:55 to the Soviet Union and he spoke of apocalypse now, 01:59 and well, you know, what's happening. 02:01 And more and more I think Christians in United States 02:04 think that it's a sort of religious duty 02:06 to support Israel, might be-- I would hope 02:09 that it's a moral duty to support any country that's-- 02:13 that's at the risk of being overrun by enemies. 02:16 But like a religious duty to support them because 02:19 it's part of us sort of manifest destiny and as Christians 02:23 we gonna be the novelist to certain events that 02:26 suppose to happen in the Middle-East. 02:28 That's a very troublesome. 02:30 I think that--it's very dangerous. 02:32 First of all as we mentioned before, 02:34 we live in a pluralistic society. 02:36 And we certainly shouldn't look to our government 02:39 to bring forth, you know, our religious and as far as our, 02:42 you know, our prophetic view. 02:44 But it really is interesting it's very common 02:47 with in the Evangelical community to see Israel as, 02:53 you know, being very prominent in the end-time scenario. 02:57 And also I've heard it said, you know, they look back 03:00 to the Old Testament and they say, you know, that those who 03:04 blessed Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel 03:06 will be cursed, and so they see it really as America's 03:09 role to bless Israel. 03:12 It's true. And you know, there are reasonable texts, 03:16 like you can take any text out of context, 03:18 and I do think that there's a residual 03:21 favor of God upon northern nation state of Israel. 03:25 This people forget it's not a religious state. 03:27 In fact it's a secular socialist state. 03:31 But the fact that the people of the promise as Paul said, 03:36 speaking in his day, that they're there, 03:38 he says, you know, the gifts 03:40 and the calling of God are irrevocable. 03:41 So for all time they are the descendents 03:44 of the people of that God bestowed His favor on them. 03:46 I think Satan, until the end of time, 03:48 the evil force will victimize them. 03:50 But to have The United States is a matter of public policy, 03:55 not always so blatantly expressed 03:56 but often it seeps through. 03:59 You can see that's sort of a rational. 04:02 The very least that's leading towards--it could lead 04:04 toward a modern day crusade of morality. Right. 04:07 Well, you know, I think on the show before we spoken about 04:10 Islamic countries and ruling by religious laws, sharia law. 04:14 Well it seems like, you know, we certainly as 04:17 religious freedom advocates speak against that. 04:21 So it seems like for us to use, at you know, religious beliefs. 04:25 I was gonna say our, but I don't believe 04:28 those particular issues, but you know 04:30 for Evangelicals to sort of push for those religious beliefs 04:33 as legislation of the country that they live in. 04:36 Well, you're getting close to what 04:38 I was going to say on Islam. 04:42 I mentioned President Regan when he expressed 04:44 in apocalyptic terms at tip of this theological aspect, 04:49 and we've seen President Bush made some slips of the tongue. 04:53 On one occasion for example, I read an article where he 04:57 called up the French President and asked for their help. 05:00 And he says we need to defeat Gog and Magog. 05:04 And the guy called for his advisors, 05:06 what's he talking about? Right. who were-- 05:09 So this was all cast in Old Testament terms 05:12 and here we were going in to save biblical people. 05:18 But I can remember watching the President Ahmadinejad 05:22 of Iran, spoke to The United Nations 05:24 and he indulged himself for on one occasion, 05:27 for about 20 minutes talking about 05:29 the coming of the Mahdi. Yes. 05:32 And most people didn't understand at the media, 05:34 just sort of said, you know, a religious fanatic 05:35 what was he talking about. 05:37 He said you have one last chance. 05:38 He said to the world to do, you know, 05:41 come with the order and then the Mahdi is coming. 05:44 He was basically threatening the over apocalypse. 05:47 Well, if you have that sort of thinking there, 05:50 and then you have-- in the West 05:52 is epitomized by the United States 05:54 and administration is sort of bind the idea, yeah, 05:57 the nations will all come against Israel 05:58 and this is the apocalyptic movement. 06:01 You basically got two secular entities, 06:04 because Iran has a secular mindset. 06:06 It was just been hijacked by religious fanatics 06:09 and the United States has separation of Church and state. 06:11 But a number of religions indulge 06:15 themselves in public office. 06:17 You could have two states going together 06:19 in the war to end of worlds 06:21 over nothing, but religious differences 06:23 and misunderstandings and not things, that are not even held 06:26 by the men in the street. Right, right. 06:28 there's been no plebiscite that I know of in United States. 06:32 And, you know, are we are going to support 06:34 Israel or any other country for religious reason? Right. 06:37 You would like to think on separation 06:40 of the Church and state, when you're looking at the state 06:41 that they ally with Israel, or Egypt, 06:44 or whoever for national interest 06:46 and doing it, yes, because it's right, 06:50 but primarily countries operate in national interest. 06:53 Right. So now is it the responsibility 06:56 of the federal government to say, you know, 07:00 to the lobbying organizations or churches that are trying 07:04 to influence and, you know, this prophetic view of theirs. 07:07 And to say, No, we're not. You know, we're gonna blew in 07:10 our particular way or is it our responsibility as citizens 07:15 to not elect individuals who-- You're getting close 07:20 to that what I think. Okay. 07:23 When I was in school it just really impressed me 07:25 when I was studying history and sociology and that 07:28 we basically exist under a social contract. 07:33 All sorts of things from the local police force 07:36 to the federal government 07:37 You know, they can pass fugitive laws 07:40 and they can have the police force and all that, 07:41 but none of it can be upheld 07:43 unless you agree to abide by the rules of society. 07:47 Basically it's a social conflict. 07:49 Up and down. And everyone knows 07:50 the ground rules you're abide by. 07:52 Now and then there's a revolutionary 07:54 or a criminal that droves out, 07:57 but they dealt with. 07:59 And I think this aberration that's more and more getting 08:03 a hold of, you know, even our foreign policy. 08:06 It can't be stopped by any legislation 08:08 or any one person taken out of the equation. 08:11 It just has to be a consciousness 08:13 by people at last that this is not right. 08:16 And it will mean in little voice, yes. 08:18 They would be troubled by someone that express 08:20 that publicly and may not be elective. 08:22 It could mean that that the public views 08:25 expressed in ways that would damp down someone 08:27 that has those tendencies, but I think we need to work 08:30 against the tide to stop what is clearly a bad development. 08:33 Right. Now, I am curious. 08:35 Individual Jews that are living there in Israel, 08:37 what is their reaction to the-- Well, I've read articles. 08:40 I know that those representing the state of Israel 08:46 they're happy for the military support, but they feel vaguely 08:49 insulted that this is all predicated 08:51 and then becoming Christian. Right. 08:53 So it's not really at root leading 08:58 to an anonymous relationship. And I think myself, and I am 09:02 going red and livid, but this is my personal opinion. 09:05 I think this is what explains why even the weak, 09:10 the closest allies with Israel on occasion like we find 09:12 they're spying on us, and they work 09:15 at counter points because they know 09:17 that America is in for the long hold with them. 09:19 But that it's rational for doing so is not an agreement 09:22 with their sense of self. Yeah. 09:25 So they--it's a sort of trust and verify approach 09:28 rather than just an amicable buddy buddies. Yeah. 09:31 I think it illustrates both about what we started 09:34 the conversation with electioneering 09:37 and improperness of Churches being involved, 09:39 and then going onto this, and foreign policy 09:42 and Churches being involved this. 09:44 It really reemphasizes to me, our beliefs are meant, 09:48 you know, the beliefs that are magazine, 09:49 Liberty magazine espouse in beliefs of, you know, 09:52 Seventh-day Adventist Church, 09:54 which we get from the Holy Bible 09:56 of just that separation between the Jew organizations. 09:59 Absolutely, particularly-- 10:00 It just really emphasizes that to me. 10:02 Separation of Churches say there's a founding principle. 10:05 You can go back in the Old Testament, 10:07 not need a discussion. But I think it can be explained, 10:10 because there's theocracy and God is not 10:12 present personally to mandate it. 10:14 But what is abundantly obvious is as you read the Bible 10:17 and Book of Revolution, there is a conflict coming 10:20 and it's all over the matter of state coercion 10:23 on religious matters. Yeah. 10:25 So, the best protection against that is to keep 10:28 religious powers separate from state powers. 10:31 Religious agenda with the church and the state 10:34 to have a secular agenda that does not inhibit faith practice, 10:38 but the state is not the faith. It's not a vehicle of our faith. 10:43 Yeah, I agree and it really is interesting to me. 10:47 You know, we had talked about having this conversation on, 10:50 you know, or discussion and I really was not very familiar 10:54 at all with the Evangelicals interest in religious 10:57 in the state of Israel and so I did some studying 11:01 beforehand, I really-- 11:02 It's quite startling, isn't it? 11:03 It's quite startling. It's very out in the open. 11:07 And so it was just really interesting to me, 11:09 I'm glad we had the conversation. 11:11 Hopefully our viewers appreciate it as well. Yeah. 11:13 And may be down the line we'll have an article on Liberty. 11:16 But I have to treat it carefully 11:17 because it's a descriptive thing, 11:19 but it's not itself a religious liberty. 11:22 It's not inhibiting someone religious liberty, 11:24 but it's creating a dynamic that could skew 11:28 the practice of religion in dangerous voice I think. 11:30 Yeah. Well, as I said before this conversation really 11:33 reemphasize to me the separation of the churches 11:36 and state and the importance, 11:38 the intricateness of that principle. 11:43 Really, you know, keeping those two interests separate distinct, 11:47 and most of all keeping the Bible 11:51 as a very highest goal in our authority. 11:56 Few years ago, I remember watching on television, 11:58 I think it was Laugh-in was the program. 12:01 They did a take-off on a weather report 12:03 from Old testament times and the Egyptian 12:07 with the forecast came on, and he said 12:09 the weather forecasts is very interesting 12:11 he says it's going to be water turning to blood, 12:14 and storms and then he says and get these frogs. 12:19 It was a funny moment. But to me it illustrated 12:23 where we are heading now. 12:24 The secular world is living in a biblical apocalypse. 12:30 It doesn't help things at all that countries 12:33 such as The United States and then working with other 12:35 countries such as Israel, and churches such as 12:39 the Roman Catholic Church are inclined to stir 12:42 the apocalypse for their own self interest. 12:45 It doesn't help anything that a secular government can speak 12:48 on religious matters in apocalyptic way. 12:51 It's incumbent on everybody of faith and integrity to keep 12:56 the two separate and to keep things in perspective 12:58 and realize that there is good, there is evil, 13:01 and there is a coming of Christ. 13:06 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17