Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:06.34\00:00:08.15
This is Lincoln Steed again
with my guest, Melissa Reid.
00:00:08.18\00:00:11.33
Before the break with Melissa
we were probably antagonizing
00:00:11.36\00:00:14.74
a few people, but
hopefully clarifying an issue
00:00:14.77\00:00:17.66
by giving as example or
exhibit political involvement
00:00:17.69\00:00:22.77
by Churches
around the catholic ad.
00:00:22.80\00:00:25.13
Right, right.
00:00:25.16\00:00:26.53
The--the, you know, I understand
where they're coming from.
00:00:26.56\00:00:29.44
They have been trouble by
this health care issue with--
00:00:29.47\00:00:33.23
they made I think,
bigger than the government made
00:00:33.26\00:00:35.20
and there's sort
of concerns issue,
00:00:35.23\00:00:37.29
But now there's
clearly all that effort
00:00:37.32\00:00:40.27
to encourage Catholics to vote
against this administration.
00:00:40.30\00:00:44.03
Right, right. No, I think
00:00:44.06\00:00:45.43
we're bringing that
up because we do so value
00:00:45.46\00:00:48.20
the instruction of our
faith leaders, you know,
00:00:48.23\00:00:51.12
and so we feel like
it should really be done
00:00:51.15\00:00:54.22
with the best interests of
Church members and properly.
00:00:54.25\00:00:57.19
We're just saying that
it should be done properly.
00:00:57.22\00:00:58.59
Now but that raises
the question in my mind,
00:00:58.62\00:01:01.54
political
involvement by the Church.
00:01:01.57\00:01:06.31
But there is another side to it.
00:01:06.34\00:01:10.20
Theological
thinking by the state,
00:01:10.23\00:01:13.52
which can also involve
the Church and--and as I look
00:01:13.55\00:01:18.66
at United States
and its foreign policy
00:01:18.69\00:01:22.57
certainly since the early 70s
00:01:22.60\00:01:27.33
more and more I
see mixed in with the
00:01:27.36\00:01:31.35
assumptions that characterize
00:01:31.38\00:01:32.77
some of the
Evangelicals in United States,
00:01:32.80\00:01:34.66
their in-time scenarios
and the role of Israel. Right.
00:01:34.69\00:01:38.73
And the rest of the
world sees that and often
00:01:38.76\00:01:42.20
I think they write
it larger than it is.
00:01:42.23\00:01:44.02
It's not the only reason, but
I think it's muddied in there.
00:01:44.05\00:01:47.49
I remember Ronald Reagan
getting up and told about
00:01:47.52\00:01:51.24
the evil empire which is
not anything to do with Israel.
00:01:51.27\00:01:53.81
But, you know, he
applied the evil empire
00:01:53.84\00:01:55.28
to the Soviet Union and
he spoke of apocalypse now,
00:01:55.31\00:01:59.39
and well, you
know, what's happening.
00:01:59.42\00:02:01.40
And more and more I think
Christians in United States
00:02:01.43\00:02:04.70
think that it's a
sort of religious duty
00:02:04.73\00:02:06.57
to support Israel,
might be-- I would hope
00:02:06.60\00:02:09.58
that it's a moral duty to
support any country that's--
00:02:09.61\00:02:13.19
that's at the risk of
being overrun by enemies.
00:02:13.22\00:02:16.89
But like a religious
duty to support them because
00:02:16.92\00:02:19.46
it's part of us sort of manifest
destiny and as Christians
00:02:19.49\00:02:23.18
we gonna be the
novelist to certain events that
00:02:23.21\00:02:26.77
suppose to happen
in the Middle-East.
00:02:26.80\00:02:28.25
That's a very troublesome.
00:02:28.28\00:02:30.31
I think
that--it's very dangerous.
00:02:30.34\00:02:32.32
First of all as
we mentioned before,
00:02:32.35\00:02:34.56
we live in a
pluralistic society.
00:02:34.59\00:02:36.64
And we certainly
shouldn't look to our government
00:02:36.67\00:02:39.67
to bring forth, you know,
our religious and as far as our,
00:02:39.70\00:02:42.68
you know, our prophetic view.
00:02:42.71\00:02:44.82
But it really is
interesting it's very common
00:02:44.85\00:02:47.60
with in the Evangelical
community to see Israel as,
00:02:47.63\00:02:53.96
you know, being very prominent
in the end-time scenario.
00:02:53.99\00:02:57.19
And also I've heard it
said, you know, they look back
00:02:57.22\00:03:00.44
to the Old Testament and they
say, you know, that those who
00:03:00.47\00:03:03.97
blessed Israel will be blessed
and those who curse Israel
00:03:04.00\00:03:06.83
will be cursed, and so
they see it really as America's
00:03:06.86\00:03:09.28
role to bless Israel.
00:03:09.31\00:03:12.46
It's true. And you know,
there are reasonable texts,
00:03:12.49\00:03:16.05
like you can take
any text out of context,
00:03:16.08\00:03:18.43
and I do think
that there's a residual
00:03:18.46\00:03:21.10
favor of God upon
northern nation state of Israel.
00:03:21.13\00:03:25.24
This people forget
it's not a religious state.
00:03:25.27\00:03:27.70
In fact it's a
secular socialist state.
00:03:27.73\00:03:31.96
But the fact that the people
of the promise as Paul said,
00:03:31.99\00:03:36.49
speaking in his
day, that they're there,
00:03:36.52\00:03:38.62
he says, you know, the gifts
00:03:38.65\00:03:40.02
and the calling of
God are irrevocable.
00:03:40.05\00:03:41.96
So for all time
they are the descendents
00:03:41.99\00:03:44.41
of the people of that God
bestowed His favor on them.
00:03:44.44\00:03:46.24
I think Satan,
until the end of time,
00:03:46.27\00:03:48.48
the evil force
will victimize them.
00:03:48.51\00:03:50.88
But to have The United States
is a matter of public policy,
00:03:50.91\00:03:55.16
not always so
blatantly expressed
00:03:55.19\00:03:56.93
but often it seeps through.
00:03:56.96\00:03:59.07
You can see that's
sort of a rational.
00:03:59.10\00:04:02.37
The very least that's
leading towards--it could lead
00:04:02.40\00:04:04.59
toward a modern day
crusade of morality. Right.
00:04:04.62\00:04:07.67
Well, you know, I think on
the show before we spoken about
00:04:07.70\00:04:10.70
Islamic countries and ruling
by religious laws, sharia law.
00:04:10.73\00:04:14.83
Well it seems like,
you know, we certainly as
00:04:14.86\00:04:17.44
religious freedom
advocates speak against that.
00:04:17.47\00:04:21.04
So it seems like for us to use,
at you know, religious beliefs.
00:04:21.07\00:04:25.64
I was gonna say
our, but I don't believe
00:04:25.67\00:04:28.68
those particular
issues, but you know
00:04:28.71\00:04:30.31
for Evangelicals to sort of
push for those religious beliefs
00:04:30.34\00:04:33.84
as legislation of the
country that they live in.
00:04:33.87\00:04:36.71
Well, you're
getting close to what
00:04:36.74\00:04:38.11
I was going to say on Islam.
00:04:38.14\00:04:42.03
I mentioned President
Regan when he expressed
00:04:42.06\00:04:44.75
in apocalyptic terms at
tip of this theological aspect,
00:04:44.78\00:04:49.46
and we've seen President Bush
made some slips of the tongue.
00:04:49.49\00:04:53.68
On one occasion for example,
I read an article where he
00:04:53.71\00:04:57.61
called up the French President
and asked for their help.
00:04:57.64\00:05:00.36
And he says we need
to defeat Gog and Magog.
00:05:00.39\00:05:04.54
And the guy
called for his advisors,
00:05:04.57\00:05:06.62
what's he talking
about? Right. who were--
00:05:06.65\00:05:09.22
So this was all cast
in Old Testament terms
00:05:09.25\00:05:12.38
and here we were going
in to save biblical people.
00:05:12.41\00:05:18.16
But I can remember watching
the President Ahmadinejad
00:05:18.19\00:05:22.41
of Iran, spoke to
The United Nations
00:05:22.44\00:05:24.65
and he indulged
himself for on one occasion,
00:05:24.68\00:05:27.45
for about 20
minutes talking about
00:05:27.48\00:05:29.56
the coming of the Mahdi. Yes.
00:05:29.59\00:05:32.02
And most people didn't
understand at the media,
00:05:32.05\00:05:34.00
just sort of said, you
know, a religious fanatic
00:05:34.03\00:05:35.67
what was he talking about.
00:05:35.70\00:05:37.07
He said you
have one last chance.
00:05:37.10\00:05:38.69
He said to the
world to do, you know,
00:05:38.72\00:05:41.96
come with the order and
then the Mahdi is coming.
00:05:41.99\00:05:44.80
He was basically
threatening the over apocalypse.
00:05:44.83\00:05:47.91
Well, if you have that
sort of thinking there,
00:05:47.94\00:05:50.52
and then you have-- in the West
00:05:50.55\00:05:52.70
is epitomized by
the United States
00:05:52.73\00:05:54.64
and administration is
sort of bind the idea, yeah,
00:05:54.67\00:05:57.10
the nations will
all come against Israel
00:05:57.13\00:05:58.93
and this is the
apocalyptic movement.
00:05:58.96\00:06:01.46
You basically got
two secular entities,
00:06:01.49\00:06:04.08
because Iran has
a secular mindset.
00:06:04.11\00:06:06.51
It was just been
hijacked by religious fanatics
00:06:06.54\00:06:09.49
and the United States has
separation of Church and state.
00:06:09.52\00:06:11.94
But a number of
religions indulge
00:06:11.97\00:06:15.58
themselves in public office.
00:06:15.61\00:06:17.81
You could have two
states going together
00:06:17.84\00:06:19.60
in the war to end of worlds
00:06:19.63\00:06:21.39
over nothing, but
religious differences
00:06:21.42\00:06:23.69
and misunderstandings and not
things, that are not even held
00:06:23.72\00:06:26.68
by the men in the
street. Right, right.
00:06:26.71\00:06:28.96
there's been no plebiscite
that I know of in United States.
00:06:28.99\00:06:32.24
And, you know, are
we are going to support
00:06:32.27\00:06:34.16
Israel or any other country
for religious reason? Right.
00:06:34.19\00:06:37.71
You would like to
think on separation
00:06:37.74\00:06:40.07
of the Church and state,
when you're looking at the state
00:06:40.10\00:06:41.79
that they ally
with Israel, or Egypt,
00:06:41.82\00:06:44.54
or whoever for national interest
00:06:44.57\00:06:46.79
and doing it, yes,
because it's right,
00:06:46.82\00:06:50.52
but primarily countries
operate in national interest.
00:06:50.55\00:06:53.06
Right. So now is
it the responsibility
00:06:53.09\00:06:56.17
of the federal
government to say, you know,
00:06:56.20\00:07:00.27
to the lobbying organizations
or churches that are trying
00:07:00.30\00:07:03.98
to influence and, you know,
this prophetic view of theirs.
00:07:04.01\00:07:07.94
And to say, No, we're not.
You know, we're gonna blew in
00:07:07.97\00:07:10.71
our particular way or is it
our responsibility as citizens
00:07:10.74\00:07:15.29
to not elect individuals
who-- You're getting close
00:07:15.32\00:07:20.85
to that what I think. Okay.
00:07:20.88\00:07:23.04
When I was in school it
just really impressed me
00:07:23.07\00:07:25.43
when I was studying
history and sociology and that
00:07:25.46\00:07:28.90
we basically exist
under a social contract.
00:07:28.93\00:07:33.52
All sorts of things
from the local police force
00:07:33.55\00:07:36.18
to the federal government
00:07:36.21\00:07:37.74
You know, they
can pass fugitive laws
00:07:37.77\00:07:40.07
and they can have the
police force and all that,
00:07:40.10\00:07:41.96
but none of it can be upheld
00:07:41.99\00:07:43.40
unless you agree to
abide by the rules of society.
00:07:43.43\00:07:47.55
Basically it's
a social conflict.
00:07:47.58\00:07:49.34
Up and down. And everyone knows
00:07:49.37\00:07:50.77
the ground
rules you're abide by.
00:07:50.80\00:07:52.83
Now and then
there's a revolutionary
00:07:52.86\00:07:54.28
or a criminal that droves out,
00:07:54.31\00:07:57.49
but they dealt with.
00:07:57.52\00:07:59.53
And I think this aberration
that's more and more getting
00:07:59.56\00:08:03.63
a hold of, you know,
even our foreign policy.
00:08:03.66\00:08:06.29
It can't be
stopped by any legislation
00:08:06.32\00:08:08.18
or any one person
taken out of the equation.
00:08:08.21\00:08:11.44
It just has to
be a consciousness
00:08:11.47\00:08:13.49
by people at last
that this is not right.
00:08:13.52\00:08:15.99
And it will mean
in little voice, yes.
00:08:16.02\00:08:18.41
They would be troubled
by someone that express
00:08:18.44\00:08:20.33
that publicly and
may not be elective.
00:08:20.36\00:08:22.26
It could mean that
that the public views
00:08:22.29\00:08:25.88
expressed in ways that
would damp down someone
00:08:25.91\00:08:27.89
that has those tendencies,
but I think we need to work
00:08:27.92\00:08:30.52
against the tide to stop what
is clearly a bad development.
00:08:30.55\00:08:33.63
Right. Now, I am curious.
00:08:33.66\00:08:35.44
Individual Jews that
are living there in Israel,
00:08:35.47\00:08:37.96
what is their reaction to
the-- Well, I've read articles.
00:08:37.99\00:08:40.46
I know that those
representing the state of Israel
00:08:40.49\00:08:46.40
they're happy for the military
support, but they feel vaguely
00:08:46.43\00:08:49.32
insulted that
this is all predicated
00:08:49.35\00:08:51.13
and then
becoming Christian. Right.
00:08:51.16\00:08:53.94
So it's not
really at root leading
00:08:53.97\00:08:58.20
to an anonymous relationship.
And I think myself, and I am
00:08:58.23\00:09:02.38
going red and livid, but
this is my personal opinion.
00:09:02.41\00:09:05.86
I think this is what
explains why even the weak,
00:09:05.89\00:09:09.98
the closest allies with
Israel on occasion like we find
00:09:10.01\00:09:12.77
they're spying
on us, and they work
00:09:12.80\00:09:15.10
at counter
points because they know
00:09:15.13\00:09:17.11
that America is in for
the long hold with them.
00:09:17.14\00:09:19.53
But that it's rational for
doing so is not an agreement
00:09:19.56\00:09:22.48
with their sense of self. Yeah.
00:09:22.51\00:09:25.37
So they--it's a sort of
trust and verify approach
00:09:25.40\00:09:28.91
rather than just an
amicable buddy buddies. Yeah.
00:09:28.94\00:09:31.68
I think it illustrates
both about what we started
00:09:31.71\00:09:34.67
the conversation
with electioneering
00:09:34.70\00:09:37.02
and improperness of
Churches being involved,
00:09:37.05\00:09:39.29
and then going onto
this, and foreign policy
00:09:39.32\00:09:42.39
and Churches
being involved this.
00:09:42.42\00:09:44.02
It really reemphasizes to
me, our beliefs are meant,
00:09:44.05\00:09:48.10
you know, the
beliefs that are magazine,
00:09:48.13\00:09:49.84
Liberty magazine
espouse in beliefs of, you know,
00:09:49.87\00:09:52.88
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
00:09:52.91\00:09:54.37
which we get from the Holy Bible
00:09:54.40\00:09:56.56
of just that separation
between the Jew organizations.
00:09:56.59\00:09:59.10
Absolutely, particularly--
00:09:59.13\00:10:00.64
It just really
emphasizes that to me.
00:10:00.67\00:10:02.62
Separation of Churches say
there's a founding principle.
00:10:02.65\00:10:05.65
You can go back
in the Old Testament,
00:10:05.68\00:10:07.16
not need a discussion. But
I think it can be explained,
00:10:07.19\00:10:10.04
because there's
theocracy and God is not
00:10:10.07\00:10:12.60
present
personally to mandate it.
00:10:12.63\00:10:14.70
But what is abundantly
obvious is as you read the Bible
00:10:14.73\00:10:17.33
and Book of Revolution,
there is a conflict coming
00:10:17.36\00:10:20.88
and it's all over the
matter of state coercion
00:10:20.91\00:10:23.75
on religious matters. Yeah.
00:10:23.78\00:10:25.17
So, the best protection
against that is to keep
00:10:25.20\00:10:28.33
religious powers
separate from state powers.
00:10:28.36\00:10:31.35
Religious agenda with
the church and the state
00:10:31.38\00:10:34.19
to have a secular agenda that
does not inhibit faith practice,
00:10:34.22\00:10:38.66
but the state is not the faith.
It's not a vehicle of our faith.
00:10:38.69\00:10:43.00
Yeah, I agree and it
really is interesting to me.
00:10:43.03\00:10:47.59
You know, we had talked about
having this conversation on,
00:10:47.62\00:10:50.30
you know, or discussion and
I really was not very familiar
00:10:50.33\00:10:54.28
at all with the Evangelicals
interest in religious
00:10:54.31\00:10:57.68
in the state of Israel
and so I did some studying
00:10:57.71\00:11:01.16
beforehand, I really--
00:11:01.19\00:11:02.56
It's quite startling, isn't it?
00:11:02.59\00:11:03.96
It's quite startling.
It's very out in the open.
00:11:03.99\00:11:07.03
And so it was just
really interesting to me,
00:11:07.06\00:11:09.64
I'm glad we had
the conversation.
00:11:09.67\00:11:11.04
Hopefully our viewers
appreciate it as well. Yeah.
00:11:11.07\00:11:13.25
And may be down the line we'll
have an article on Liberty.
00:11:13.28\00:11:16.03
But I have to treat it carefully
00:11:16.06\00:11:17.43
because it's a
descriptive thing,
00:11:17.46\00:11:19.72
but it's not itself
a religious liberty.
00:11:19.75\00:11:21.98
It's not inhibiting
someone religious liberty,
00:11:22.01\00:11:24.30
but it's creating a
dynamic that could skew
00:11:24.33\00:11:27.97
the practice of religion
in dangerous voice I think.
00:11:28.00\00:11:30.41
Yeah. Well, as I said
before this conversation really
00:11:30.44\00:11:33.50
reemphasize to me the
separation of the churches
00:11:33.53\00:11:36.36
and state and the importance,
00:11:36.39\00:11:38.00
the intricateness
of that principle.
00:11:38.03\00:11:42.97
Really, you know, keeping those
two interests separate distinct,
00:11:43.00\00:11:47.83
and most of all
keeping the Bible
00:11:47.86\00:11:51.15
as a very highest
goal in our authority.
00:11:51.18\00:11:56.11
Few years ago, I
remember watching on television,
00:11:56.14\00:11:58.18
I think it was
Laugh-in was the program.
00:11:58.21\00:12:00.98
They did a
take-off on a weather report
00:12:01.01\00:12:03.80
from Old testament
times and the Egyptian
00:12:03.83\00:12:07.30
with the forecast
came on, and he said
00:12:07.33\00:12:09.70
the weather
forecasts is very interesting
00:12:09.73\00:12:11.26
he says it's going to
be water turning to blood,
00:12:11.29\00:12:14.82
and storms and then he
says and get these frogs.
00:12:14.85\00:12:19.45
It was a funny moment.
But to me it illustrated
00:12:19.48\00:12:23.15
where we are heading now.
00:12:23.18\00:12:24.78
The secular world is
living in a biblical apocalypse.
00:12:24.81\00:12:30.33
It doesn't help
things at all that countries
00:12:30.36\00:12:33.32
such as The United States
and then working with other
00:12:33.35\00:12:35.85
countries such as
Israel, and churches such as
00:12:35.88\00:12:39.22
the Roman Catholic
Church are inclined to stir
00:12:39.25\00:12:42.29
the apocalypse for
their own self interest.
00:12:42.32\00:12:45.32
It doesn't help anything that
a secular government can speak
00:12:45.35\00:12:48.89
on religious
matters in apocalyptic way.
00:12:48.92\00:12:51.56
It's incumbent on everybody
of faith and integrity to keep
00:12:51.59\00:12:56.05
the two separate and to
keep things in perspective
00:12:56.08\00:12:58.82
and realize that there
is good, there is evil,
00:12:58.85\00:13:01.58
and there is a coming of Christ.
00:13:01.61\00:13:06.81
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:06.84\00:13:10.95