Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reid
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000191A
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is the program that bringing you a discussion 00:26 and up to date information on Religious Liberty events 00:29 in the United States and around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:35 And my guest on this program is Melissa Reid, 00:37 associate editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 Welcome, Melissa. 00:41 Thank you so much, I love coming on and being involved. 00:43 And I am gonna involve you in a very contentious discussion. 00:47 Okay. Not contentious but controversial. 00:51 As we record this we're not too many months away 00:54 from the U.S. presidential election. 00:56 Yes, I've heard a little bit about that. 00:57 I think it's been in the news. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:59 And no matter where people are watching from, 01:01 I am sure they get some echoes of it. 01:04 The whole world watches. 01:07 And I can speak as an Australian, 01:08 I grew up in Australia 01:10 sometimes it's not so much to understand the politics. 01:13 It's just to enjoy the show. 01:16 It certainly looked like a three ring circle. 01:18 Now in Liberty Magazine, quite a few months ago 01:21 now we had an article about Jonathan Turley. 01:24 Remember that George Washington 01:25 University professor who gave a good analysis 01:28 of the improper use of religion or religious motives 01:32 and arguments by different candidates. 01:36 And we'd discussed that on this program before. 01:39 Then there's also a political discussion 01:41 that's not always expressed in religious terms of these-- 01:44 what are these, Super packs? Yes. 01:46 And Proxy groups that are running high power political ads 01:51 outside the funding constrains of candidates. 01:55 And that has changed this election big time. Yeah. 01:59 But I saw something the other day 02:01 that I just have to comment on 02:03 and I intend to write about it in Liberty Magazine. 02:06 I showed it to you at work. 02:08 It was like one of these Super pack ads, 02:12 beautifully done advertisement, powerfully presented. 02:17 And when I first saw it 02:19 I was swept along on the emotion of it. 02:22 The beautiful music, the newest filming 02:26 with the light and dark and powerful images, 02:29 and then I see this is put on by the Roman Catholic Church 02:32 with the statement aimed to change the government. Yes. 02:37 Now, you know, it could be-- 02:38 in this case I am gonna talk about the Roman Catholic Church, 02:40 but this is just exhibit there. 02:42 But I know different religious organizations 02:45 that have toyed with this. 02:47 But I think we're at the cusp of some serious developments 02:52 where religious groups think 02:54 that they can influence the political landscape. Right. 02:57 It's interesting because they've become 03:00 more and more comfortable doing that. 03:03 We know that in United States, 03:05 Churches as non-profit organizations 03:08 are tax exempt 50123. 03:10 Are not suppose to be political involve. Are supposed to be. 03:13 I believe that they shouldn't be involved 03:15 whether their taxes are involved or not. 03:17 Whether they're, you know, I believe that the sacred 03:21 and the profane should be separate and distinct in kind. 03:23 Unless the state is dealing with the-- 03:26 like for example, we're on Religious Liberty 03:29 we've got to be careful saying with the gay marriage thing 03:33 forcing legislation on that. 03:34 But I think a Church has every right 03:36 to speak morally to the state 03:40 and the secular structure on that issue. Right. 03:43 But that's not the same as forcing legislation through 03:47 and forcing out of office politician 03:49 if he doesn't agree with the group. Right. Right. 03:51 But Churches, you mention this ad and we've this, 03:56 is it pulpit free Sunday or something like that 03:59 were there's actually is put on by a religious organization. 04:02 I am think in 2011, it was like over 500 congregations 04:07 where they blatantly, you know, 04:09 local congregations blatantly said we're going to-- 04:12 we're gonna indorse particular candidate. 04:14 So it's their-actually, you know, 04:16 they're not even trying to get around something. 04:18 They're right in their face doing it 04:20 and they're feeling more and more comfortable 04:22 and it's interesting-- go ahead, you were-- 04:25 Well, I was gonna say during the Bush administration 04:28 there were some punitive efforts against Churches 04:33 that were doing that sort of thing. 04:35 But it was only the Churches 04:36 that were opposing the administration. 04:39 Their proxies in the faith community 04:41 that were pushing from them were left alone. 04:43 And to me that illustrated in a nutshell 04:46 the real danger of this. 04:48 Once you indulge yourself with an ad like that 04:51 you've cast your political fortunes 04:53 with a certain side and it's often been joked 04:57 about politics war by other means. 05:00 Yeah. Yeah. There...it's hardball. 05:04 And why should a Church enter into that fry 05:06 and then take the political consequences 05:09 when the winners or losers reverse at some point 05:12 and you're really on the odds. 05:13 You can be victimized by the state. Right. 05:15 And I believe as a local Church member 05:19 rather than as a local Church leader, 05:21 I would be very uncomfortable if my pastor came 05:24 and said, you know, from the pulpit this is 05:27 who you are suppose to vote for. 05:29 This is who God has chosen 05:31 as pastors' representative of Christ and of our faith. 05:36 And for him to say, 05:37 this is who God has chosen as the leader of the country, 05:41 I will be very uncomfortable. It's being done. 05:42 And--no it's being done more and more. 05:45 And not only it's a way to really divide a congregation, 05:50 I don't remember. I think we covered in Liberty. 05:52 There was a pastor down in Georgia that said, 05:55 I think it was during the Bill Clinton era, 05:59 but-- no it was Kerry. 06:00 He said if we vote for John Kerry 06:02 then you're not welcome in our Church anymore. 06:04 Well, the Church decided in fact that he wasn't welcome. 06:06 And they got rid of him. 06:08 So I think that-- Well, Jesus said that, 06:10 "He who takes up the sword will die by the sword." 06:12 Yes. That particular sword cut it down. 06:16 Now it's just improper 06:18 and on the Religious Liberty front particularly 06:21 as it express through separation of Church and State, 06:24 those ground rules are clear. 06:25 The government in the United States, 06:27 again separation of Churches takes 06:29 first amendment knows the rules. 06:31 It's reticent to apply them rigidly 06:33 because it can easily be seen as victimization. 06:36 But in theory a Church which has an exemption from taxes 06:41 and other privileges given by the state 06:44 in the view of it's other worldly status 06:47 breaks that rule and agreement and makes itself a subject 06:51 to punitive action of a monitory rights about the state. Right. 06:56 Just-- They get away with it so they keep doing it. 06:58 To me this ad is just 06:59 the epidemic of this tendency which, 07:04 you know, many are involved. 07:05 But this is exhibit from it. Yeah. Yeah. 07:08 Well, just an explanation to individuals as far as 07:10 why Churches receive the tax? 07:13 You know, Churches as non-profit organizations 07:17 receive this tax exemption 07:19 why it's so important that they not being involved 07:22 just from a legal prospective 07:25 not a religious or more prospective, 07:27 but it's because political donations. 07:30 If I was to go and give a political party a donation 07:35 that's not a tax deductible. 07:37 But if a local Church, which is receiving its taxes 07:41 and status is then it almost can be a feeding ground 07:45 for political activity because it's a way for individuals 07:48 to give tax free to political organization. 07:50 You know, if I know that my Church 07:52 is gonna promote a particular candidate 07:54 then I can then use the local congregation. 07:56 So I mean it's just inappropriate 07:58 in so many different levels. 08:00 Well, this ad and I need to explain it and I cannot show it. 08:04 And I appreciated the ad for what it was. 08:07 It was powerfully done. 08:09 There was the moody, light and dark of the interior 08:12 of the blacksmith's shop and this guy is pounding at-- 08:17 you think of horseshoes but then you see 08:20 words like brands with different words, jobs, 08:23 economy, freedom, liberty. Yes. Yes. 08:27 And the voice with this powerful background says, 08:31 "There are issues in our country that we need to deal with." 08:36 Then an ultimate now 08:37 and then with the blacksmith was the voting both. 08:40 And it says it is appeal to Catholics. 08:42 Catholics have a chance to change 08:45 the destiny of this nation, to change it. 08:47 And when it came down to liberty and jobs, 08:51 but particularly liberty then there was the statement 08:53 about the restriction of Catholics Religious Liberty 08:56 with the contraception issue, which is it's legitimate 09:00 for the Roman Catholic Church to think that. 09:02 I don't challenge their right to think that. 09:04 But is that then justification to take 09:07 a full blooded political attack 09:12 on the administration to bring them down. 09:15 I mean that's an individual catholic may decide that. Right. 09:19 And in fact that's a very reasonable 09:21 to deduction for a person of faith to see 09:23 and believe that their faith stance 09:26 is being marginalized by a certain party. 09:28 Well, I vote a different way. 09:29 But they have the religious organization 09:31 crawling the members and say, 09:34 we gonna remove this political entity to step in. 09:39 I just feel it makes the hair on the back of my head stand up. 09:42 I don't think America has seen this 09:45 much at least not in my lifetime, 09:47 but it's the stuff of the old world 09:50 and it will not lead in the good direction. Right. 09:53 Well, I remember and this again 09:55 is not to pick on the Catholic Church. 09:57 No, I am not trying to pick on them-- We're seeing-- 09:58 They've put themselves-- Right. No. No. 10:00 No, but I was just gonna give another example. 10:02 I remember a few years ago and there were individuals 10:06 and we were talking about the pro-life 10:07 and pro-choice issues and there were political candidates 10:09 that were pro-choice who were catholic 10:12 and identify themselves as catholic. 10:13 And catholic leaders, bishops and you know, 10:16 I don't remember all they were telling, 10:18 calling for them to be excommunicated from the Church. 10:21 And I really felt like that was inappropriate as far as you know 10:25 this is this individual's belief and you know-- 10:27 Well, back to another discussion. 10:29 On one level there's a half truth there. 10:32 The Church had every right to sever their relationship 10:36 with the Church that they remember 10:37 if they were not representing it anymore. 10:39 But in the way that ad was taken out. 10:42 It was a political ad to try to force 10:48 political leaders to behave differently. Right. 10:50 So that dynamic was wrong. 10:51 But as far as their association to excommunicate them, fine. 10:55 If they no longer-- 10:57 unfortunately the claims made by the Roman Catholic Church 11:01 are little bit similar to the Islamic community. 11:05 It's not just that you severe your relationship. 11:07 You are cast into the bottomless pit. 11:09 You lost perdition. 11:12 So that's a very strong hold on someone. 11:15 It isn't just, "yeah, I don't agree with him anymore. 11:17 So now I am--" Right. Right. 11:19 Yeah, I just thought of it and talking about 11:21 another article in Liberty 11:22 we' were talking about bullying in November or December issue. 11:26 And I thought to me that was a bit of bullying 11:29 and again you're legislating for a pluralistic society. 11:32 You're not legislating for you know-- 11:34 Well, now you gonna decide. 11:36 I'll make a comment on it and you know, 11:37 I've grown up in the Seventh Adventist Church 11:40 and I've studied not just my own Church 11:43 but a lot of religions-- 11:45 not just Christian religions, 11:46 and I think that's-- I-I--how can I say it. 11:51 It comes with the truth 11:52 when you're dealing with religion. 11:54 Religious leaders very easily can become police 11:57 because they are dealing with matters of eternal destiny. 12:01 Not just living for the here and now. 12:04 And it's easy for them to sort of step into place of God really 12:08 and figure that I now hold the power of life 12:11 and death over you. 12:12 And in the worst case you are talking about excommunication. 12:14 You know, do what I say 12:16 or you will be cast in that darkness. 12:18 That gives another human being incredible power. 12:21 Yeah, you know-- And I don't think from my reading 12:23 of the Old Testament or the New, 12:25 I don't think that was intended for religious leaders. 12:27 No, I don't think so-- They are to be servants 12:29 and need to be even more humble before God. Right. 12:32 And I know that's one of the reasons 12:34 why we always lift our leaders up in prayer 12:36 because of course that's the tendency as human beings to, 12:40 you know, to make use of our power that's given to you. 12:43 And so I know that these individuals 12:47 pray themselves and we need to-- 12:48 It's a very hazardous endeavor 12:49 and certainly we hope that political ads 12:52 are not seen more frequently. 12:53 We'll be back after a short break 12:55 to continue this discussion or may be move on 12:57 to another aspect. Stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17