Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the program that
bringing you a discussion
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and up to date information
on Religious Liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Melissa Reid,
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associate editor
of Liberty Magazine.
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Welcome, Melissa.
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Thank you so much, I love
coming on and being involved.
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And I am gonna involve you in
a very contentious discussion.
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Okay. Not
contentious but controversial.
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As we record this we're
not too many months away
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from the U.S.
presidential election.
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Yes, I've heard a
little bit about that.
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I think it's been in
the news. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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And no matter where
people are watching from,
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I am sure they
get some echoes of it.
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The whole world watches.
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And I can speak
as an Australian,
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I grew up in Australia
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sometimes it's not so much
to understand the politics.
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It's just to enjoy the show.
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It certainly looked
like a three ring circle.
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Now in Liberty
Magazine, quite a few months ago
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now we had an article
about Jonathan Turley.
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Remember that George Washington
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University professor
who gave a good analysis
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of the improper use of
religion or religious motives
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and arguments by
different candidates.
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And we'd discussed
that on this program before.
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Then there's also a
political discussion
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that's not always expressed
in religious terms of these--
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what are these,
Super packs? Yes.
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And Proxy groups that are
running high power political ads
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outside the funding
constrains of candidates.
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And that has changed
this election big time. Yeah.
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But I saw
something the other day
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that I just have to comment on
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and I intend to write
about it in Liberty Magazine.
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I showed it to you at work.
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It was like one of
these Super pack ads,
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beautifully done advertisement,
powerfully presented.
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And when I first saw it
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I was swept along
on the emotion of it.
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The beautiful
music, the newest filming
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with the light and
dark and powerful images,
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and then I see this is put
on by the Roman Catholic Church
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with the statement aimed
to change the government. Yes.
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Now, you know, it could be--
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in this case I am gonna talk
about the Roman Catholic Church,
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but this is just exhibit there.
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But I know different
religious organizations
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that have toyed with this.
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But I think we're at the cusp
of some serious developments
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where religious groups think
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that they can influence
the political landscape. Right.
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It's interesting
because they've become
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more and more
comfortable doing that.
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We know that in United States,
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Churches as
non-profit organizations
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are tax exempt 50123.
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Are not suppose to be political
involve. Are supposed to be.
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I believe that they
shouldn't be involved
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whether their taxes
are involved or not.
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Whether they're, you
know, I believe that the sacred
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and the profane should be
separate and distinct in kind.
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Unless the state
is dealing with the--
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like for example,
we're on Religious Liberty
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we've got to be careful saying
with the gay marriage thing
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forcing legislation on that.
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But I think a
Church has every right
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to speak morally to the state
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and the secular
structure on that issue. Right.
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But that's not the same as
forcing legislation through
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and forcing out
of office politician
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if he doesn't agree
with the group. Right. Right.
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But Churches, you
mention this ad and we've this,
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is it pulpit free
Sunday or something like that
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were there's actually is put
on by a religious organization.
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I am think in 2011, it was
like over 500 congregations
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where they blatantly, you know,
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local congregations
blatantly said we're going to--
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we're gonna indorse
particular candidate.
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So it's
their-actually, you know,
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they're not even trying
to get around something.
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They're right in
their face doing it
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and they're feeling
more and more comfortable
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and it's interesting--
go ahead, you were--
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Well, I was gonna say
during the Bush administration
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there were some punitive
efforts against Churches
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that were doing
that sort of thing.
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But it was only the Churches
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that were opposing
the administration.
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Their proxies in
the faith community
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that were pushing
from them were left alone.
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And to me that
illustrated in a nutshell
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the real danger of this.
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Once you indulge
yourself with an ad like that
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you've cast your
political fortunes
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with a certain side
and it's often been joked
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about politics
war by other means.
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Yeah. Yeah.
There...it's hardball.
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And why should a
Church enter into that fry
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and then take the
political consequences
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when the winners or
losers reverse at some point
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and you're really on the odds.
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You can be
victimized by the state. Right.
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And I believe as a
local Church member
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rather than as a
local Church leader,
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I would be very
uncomfortable if my pastor came
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and said, you know,
from the pulpit this is
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who you are suppose to vote for.
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This is who God has chosen
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as pastors' representative
of Christ and of our faith.
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And for him to say,
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this is who God has chosen
as the leader of the country,
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I will be very
uncomfortable. It's being done.
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And--no it's being
done more and more.
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And not only it's a way to
really divide a congregation,
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I don't remember. I
think we covered in Liberty.
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There was a pastor
down in Georgia that said,
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I think it was
during the Bill Clinton era,
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but-- no it was Kerry.
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He said if we
vote for John Kerry
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then you're not
welcome in our Church anymore.
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Well, the Church decided in
fact that he wasn't welcome.
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And they got rid of him.
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So I think that--
Well, Jesus said that,
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"He who takes up the
sword will die by the sword."
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Yes. That
particular sword cut it down.
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Now it's just improper
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and on the Religious
Liberty front particularly
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as it express through
separation of Church and State,
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those ground rules are clear.
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The government in
the United States,
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again separation
of Churches takes
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first amendment knows the rules.
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It's reticent to
apply them rigidly
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because it can easily
be seen as victimization.
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But in theory a Church which
has an exemption from taxes
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and other
privileges given by the state
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in the view of it's
other worldly status
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breaks that rule and agreement
and makes itself a subject
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to punitive action of a monitory
rights about the state. Right.
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Just-- They get away
with it so they keep doing it.
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To me this ad is just
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the epidemic of
this tendency which,
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you know, many are involved.
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But this is exhibit
from it. Yeah. Yeah.
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Well, just an explanation
to individuals as far as
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why Churches receive the tax?
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You know, Churches as
non-profit organizations
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receive this tax exemption
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why it's so important
that they not being involved
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just from a legal prospective
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not a religious
or more prospective,
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but it's because
political donations.
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If I was to go and give a
political party a donation
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that's not a tax deductible.
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But if a local Church,
which is receiving its taxes
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and status is then it
almost can be a feeding ground
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for political activity because
it's a way for individuals
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to give tax free to
political organization.
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You know, if I
know that my Church
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is gonna promote a
particular candidate
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then I can then use
the local congregation.
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So I mean it's
just inappropriate
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in so many different levels.
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Well, this ad and I need to
explain it and I cannot show it.
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And I appreciated
the ad for what it was.
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It was powerfully done.
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There was the moody,
light and dark of the interior
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of the blacksmith's shop
and this guy is pounding at--
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you think of
horseshoes but then you see
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words like brands
with different words, jobs,
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economy, freedom,
liberty. Yes. Yes.
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And the voice with this
powerful background says,
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"There are issues in our country
that we need to deal with."
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Then an ultimate now
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and then with the
blacksmith was the voting both.
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And it says it is
appeal to Catholics.
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Catholics have
a chance to change
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the destiny of this
nation, to change it.
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And when it came
down to liberty and jobs,
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but particularly liberty
then there was the statement
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about the restriction of
Catholics Religious Liberty
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with the contraception
issue, which is it's legitimate
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for the Roman
Catholic Church to think that.
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I don't challenge
their right to think that.
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But is that then
justification to take
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a full blooded political attack
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on the administration
to bring them down.
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I mean that's an individual
catholic may decide that. Right.
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And in fact
that's a very reasonable
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to deduction for a
person of faith to see
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and believe that
their faith stance
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is being
marginalized by a certain party.
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Well, I vote a different way.
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But they have the
religious organization
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crawling the members and say,
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we gonna remove this
political entity to step in.
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I just feel it makes the hair
on the back of my head stand up.
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I don't think
America has seen this
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much at least
not in my lifetime,
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but it's the
stuff of the old world
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and it will not lead in
the good direction. Right.
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Well, I remember and this again
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is not to pick on
the Catholic Church.
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No, I am not trying to
pick on them-- We're seeing--
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They've put
themselves-- Right. No. No.
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No, but I was just
gonna give another example.
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I remember a few years
ago and there were individuals
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and we were
talking about the pro-life
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and pro-choice issues and
there were political candidates
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that were
pro-choice who were catholic
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and identify
themselves as catholic.
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And catholic
leaders, bishops and you know,
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I don't remember
all they were telling,
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calling for them to be
excommunicated from the Church.
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And I really felt like that was
inappropriate as far as you know
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this is this individual's
belief and you know--
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Well, back to
another discussion.
00:10:27.83\00:10:29.77
On one level
there's a half truth there.
00:10:29.80\00:10:32.11
The Church had every right
to sever their relationship
00:10:32.14\00:10:35.98
with the Church
that they remember
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if they were not
representing it anymore.
00:10:37.53\00:10:39.94
But in the way
that ad was taken out.
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It was a
political ad to try to force
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political leaders to
behave differently. Right.
00:10:48.10\00:10:50.52
So that dynamic was wrong.
00:10:50.55\00:10:51.92
But as far as their association
to excommunicate them, fine.
00:10:51.95\00:10:55.90
If they no longer--
00:10:55.93\00:10:57.65
unfortunately the claims made
by the Roman Catholic Church
00:10:57.68\00:11:01.20
are little bit similar
to the Islamic community.
00:11:01.23\00:11:05.23
It's not just that you
severe your relationship.
00:11:05.26\00:11:07.36
You are cast into
the bottomless pit.
00:11:07.39\00:11:09.67
You lost perdition.
00:11:09.70\00:11:12.00
So that's a very
strong hold on someone.
00:11:12.03\00:11:15.13
It isn't just, "yeah, I
don't agree with him anymore.
00:11:15.16\00:11:17.42
So now I am--" Right. Right.
00:11:17.45\00:11:19.12
Yeah, I just thought
of it and talking about
00:11:19.15\00:11:20.97
another article in Liberty
00:11:21.00\00:11:22.58
we' were talking about bullying
in November or December issue.
00:11:22.61\00:11:26.38
And I thought to me
that was a bit of bullying
00:11:26.41\00:11:29.29
and again you're legislating
for a pluralistic society.
00:11:29.32\00:11:32.76
You're not
legislating for you know--
00:11:32.79\00:11:34.60
Well, now you gonna decide.
00:11:34.63\00:11:36.00
I'll make a
comment on it and you know,
00:11:36.03\00:11:37.96
I've grown up in the
Seventh Adventist Church
00:11:37.99\00:11:40.02
and I've studied
not just my own Church
00:11:40.05\00:11:43.54
but a lot of religions--
00:11:43.57\00:11:45.47
not just Christian religions,
00:11:45.50\00:11:46.87
and I think that's--
I-I--how can I say it.
00:11:46.90\00:11:51.23
It comes with the truth
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when you're
dealing with religion.
00:11:52.66\00:11:54.03
Religious leaders very
easily can become police
00:11:54.06\00:11:57.55
because they are dealing
with matters of eternal destiny.
00:11:57.58\00:12:01.69
Not just living
for the here and now.
00:12:01.72\00:12:04.11
And it's easy for them to sort
of step into place of God really
00:12:04.14\00:12:08.60
and figure that I now
hold the power of life
00:12:08.63\00:12:11.03
and death over you.
00:12:11.06\00:12:12.58
And in the worst case you are
talking about excommunication.
00:12:12.61\00:12:14.71
You know, do what I say
00:12:14.74\00:12:16.49
or you will be
cast in that darkness.
00:12:16.52\00:12:18.54
That gives another
human being incredible power.
00:12:18.57\00:12:21.27
Yeah, you know-- And I
don't think from my reading
00:12:21.30\00:12:23.29
of the Old Testament or the New,
00:12:23.32\00:12:25.16
I don't think that was
intended for religious leaders.
00:12:25.19\00:12:27.86
No, I don't think so--
They are to be servants
00:12:27.89\00:12:29.60
and need to be even more
humble before God. Right.
00:12:29.63\00:12:32.31
And I know that's
one of the reasons
00:12:32.34\00:12:34.08
why we always lift
our leaders up in prayer
00:12:34.11\00:12:36.88
because of course that's
the tendency as human beings to,
00:12:36.91\00:12:40.54
you know, to make use of
our power that's given to you.
00:12:40.57\00:12:43.93
And so I know
that these individuals
00:12:43.96\00:12:46.98
pray themselves and we need to--
00:12:47.01\00:12:48.40
It's a very hazardous endeavor
00:12:48.43\00:12:49.95
and certainly we
hope that political ads
00:12:49.98\00:12:52.38
are not seen more frequently.
00:12:52.41\00:12:53.88
We'll be back
after a short break
00:12:53.91\00:12:55.82
to continue this
discussion or may be move on
00:12:55.85\00:12:57.85
to another aspect. Stay with us.
00:12:57.88\00:13:00.79