Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reid
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000190B
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00:06 Welcome back to "Liberty Insider."
00:08 Before the break we were getting into 00:10 a discussion you don't often hear 00:12 about Religious Liberty within a church. 00:16 It's a relate to some of these dissensions 00:18 and doctrinal disputations and even 00:22 cases where someone's feels injured, 00:24 imagine life's to may be ejected or lives in a high dungeon. 00:30 I should use that word because that invokes 00:32 to me the inquisition. Yes. 00:34 But as I was telling you before in the break 00:37 that it gets closer to where I think we need to look 00:40 for Religious Liberty question talking about Martin Luther. 00:43 Right. He had every right to question 00:47 his church's believes but he did not do it as an outsider. 00:51 He did it as an insider thinking he could change it. 00:53 And then what happened? 00:54 What did the Pope do, you remember? 00:56 Okay, I think they sentenced him to death. 00:58 They issued a Papal Bull. Yes. 01:00 An excommunication and a ball that pretty much 01:03 brought the--not just the church pass, 01:06 but the civil pass down on him. 01:07 His very life was at threat then. 01:09 Now that's a Religious Liberty question 01:11 because what was happening there was coercion. Yes. 01:15 Now as a member of the Adventist church or the Baptist church 01:18 or whatever, they can't really coerce me. 01:20 They can bring social pressure on me but I can leave anytime. 01:23 It's a free association. Absolutely. Right. 01:25 I can practice whatever faith I want somewhere else. 01:30 I could be in another religion 01:32 or whatever, but they are not forcing me. 01:33 Most of my free will is not hesitant 01:36 but in the dynamic of the middle age it was a different thing. 01:40 If you're different from the church 01:43 you could be imprisoned. 01:44 You could be burned as a heretic. 01:46 But that didn't happen instantly. 01:47 The progression was more and more dangerous. 01:50 So there was a lot at stake. Yes, yes. 01:52 And I think-- I absolutely agree with that. 01:55 But I also think we're gonna make sure and say 01:58 that we're not suggesting that individual church 02:01 members or even representatives of church 02:03 should be, you know, automatons. 02:06 And just blindly, you know, spouting 02:09 here's the beliefs of this church and notes, 02:11 you know, I think that our beliefs can only be sincere 02:15 if they are personal beliefs. Absolutely. 02:18 And so you know, we need to be able to--as we, you know, 02:22 I went up to the Adventist school system, education system. 02:26 And we were thought particular things, 02:28 but we also need to learn those things on our own. 02:31 We need to--this relationship 02:34 with Christ needs to be personal. 02:35 Otherwise it's not sincere. 02:37 It's not a relationship if it's not sincere. 02:38 And so we need to have that freedom, 02:42 individual freedom to be able to 02:45 develop that relationship on our own. 02:47 You know, I thought the church of the Middle Ages 02:50 or the Reformation period and I don't think 02:53 the Roman Catholic Church 02:55 is wanting to defend that era very much. 02:57 They disavowed in memory of reconciliation, 03:00 document nearly 10 years ago I think now. 03:04 But I must say that today the Roman Catholic Church 03:08 is even showing a more appropriate model 03:11 like on the issue of abortion and contraception, 03:16 and the Latin, the Vulgate mess. 03:22 There's great differences, the church hierarchy 03:25 make their opinions know. 03:26 But people are not constrained 03:28 or forced to act the certain way. 03:33 There's more of a free association of work 03:35 even in the Roman Catholic Church, 03:36 which by its nature is more authoritarian. 03:39 Right. Well, it's interesting. 03:40 There is the situation with the nuns in the Catholic Church 03:43 who have got in trouble with Pope Benedict for being, 03:49 you know, having social service positions that are inconsistent. 03:55 And so there is that drama there here in North America. 03:58 But at least they're not using-- 04:00 well, we don't know what happens in the closed monasteries, 04:04 but still, I mean that-- I shouldn't even joke with that. 04:07 Right. But clearly in the modern model 04:11 even the Roman Catholic Church which had a medieval problem 04:14 is in a phase following Vatican too 04:16 where they see what we're talking about that you can't-- 04:20 in the modern world, you can't force and control people. 04:22 Absolutely, yes. There's all sorts of ultimatums 04:26 and dictates that are given. 04:28 That is fine. I mean it's a social dynamic, 04:30 but it's not Religious Liberty. 04:31 It might be a moral-- I mean, 04:33 often a very real moral differences at work. 04:36 Yeah. But back to where we started, 04:38 like I say, I can't imagine a Seventh-day Adventist 04:41 pastor for example who has gone through seminary. 04:44 He's been baptized and has ceded to set of believes 04:49 that characterized our organization. 04:51 I can't imagine him for example going online 04:54 and being interviewed let's just say, 04:56 and giving a self description of what an Adventist church. 04:59 It is just, you know, another universe 05:01 than what he is paid to represent. Right. Right. 05:04 To me, that is morally wrong and may be the church 05:09 can't do anything to him. 05:10 They wouldn't want to because he's a moral agent. 05:12 But he has broken-- we always used to talk about 05:15 social contract in society. 05:17 But he has broken a certain moral contract. 05:19 A sort of covenant, yeah. 05:20 Covenant with the church. Yeah. Yeah. 05:22 I-- And that's not a Religious Liberty. 05:24 He's not exercising Religious Liberty rights. 05:26 He's just showing disloyalty. 05:28 Yes. Yes. And I think we look at other faith groups. 05:32 We see particular issues going on. 05:33 We've actually seen, 05:35 you know, whole sections of churches divide. 05:38 You know, world as organization, in world-- 05:40 you know, churches of organizations divide 05:43 because of situations like that where 05:47 representatives--local representatives have felt 05:49 more and more comfortable saying, 05:51 "actually this is the way that we're gonna, 05:53 you know, run our church." 05:55 Thinking particularly of Anglican Church 05:59 and the situation where the same sex-- 06:01 There's a schism coming in basically 06:04 because of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean-- 06:05 And these are very unfortunate things 06:07 but they're not religiously liberty in the classic sense. 06:09 Right. Right. But I think-- I think unity within the church 06:12 is so important as far as-- I mean our whole goal 06:15 is to be able to share, to be able to evangelist, 06:17 to be able to share Christ with others. 06:19 And I think we can do most effectively 06:21 through a united world church. Absolutely. 06:24 And so, you know, to me that's the real priority. 06:27 Again, I am not saying that people should be muscled 06:30 by any means, but I feel like as Christians 06:32 we need to be first of all be respectful, 06:35 you know, of our church organization. 06:36 Wasn't there a Bible text that says, 06:38 "Love for Christ can strains me?" Oh! 06:41 So there's a-- That's probably not one we quote a lot. 06:45 So you're not forced in a church as a free association. 06:50 But there are constrains, moral constrains 06:53 and eternal constrains that should be on paper. 06:56 It's not free go to just criticize, tear down, 06:59 break down the structure and I am not picking on 07:03 at all on my own church. 07:04 But as I look at, you know, we mentioned 07:07 different churches on ordination of priests or ministers 07:12 and women's ordination and these sort of things, 07:14 they're happening in many different churches. 07:17 But first of all these are very unfortunate. 07:20 People are showing, I think often disloyalty 07:24 either to the structure or to the beliefs 07:26 that they have joined themselves to. 07:29 But they cannot cry foul when they brought to task 07:34 verbally and saying their Religious Liberty 07:36 is being impended on. Right. 07:39 Right. I don't think so at all. 07:40 No. I agree with you that I--it is much more 07:43 of an employment issue. 07:45 Or an association question. 07:47 Or an association question. If you're no longer 07:48 like-minded with these people then you go somewhere else. 07:52 Right. Right. And it seems odd that it is unique to, 07:56 you know, church organizations. 07:57 You don't see that even if I think about 07:59 other non profit situations. 08:01 You know, if all of sudden, you know, 08:03 you have a different view on, 08:06 you know, aid or development or something like that. 08:11 You don't see people defend, suing their employer 08:14 for not allowing to have that view 08:16 even in a non-profit situation. 08:19 So, it's interesting that it's really the individual 08:23 conscious that people are-- 08:25 It's interesting that in the time of the judges 08:28 in the Old Testament, after the prophets-- 08:32 really there was a time of chaos. 08:34 And the judges were just 08:35 religious strongmen that came out. 08:38 Sometimes they were militarily strong as well as religious, 08:41 but they were sort of-- like Samson was one of them. 08:43 He's a strong man. 08:45 But in the time of judges that comment 08:46 was made that "every man 08:48 did what was right in his own sight." 08:49 And we need to be careful while I say 08:53 this is not a Religious Liberty issue in the structural sense 08:57 and so Liberty Magazine doesn't have articles 08:59 about internal debates. Right. 09:01 But I do believe that looking at these dissensions 09:05 that's a lot of what's going on. 09:07 I see them as the sign of basically personal rebellion 09:11 that they're not--well, elsewhere the Bible says, 09:14 "Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus." 09:17 I don't think we can characterize Jesus. 09:19 He is purposely creating dissensions. 09:21 Even though when He stood up 09:22 and spoke the truth, they stoned him. 09:25 They tried to stone him on couple 09:26 of occasions and crucified Him. Right. 09:28 Now I think if we look at the gospel 09:31 and so the witness of Christ and all the instructions 09:33 that were given on how to deal with each other, 09:37 you know, how to deal with government, 09:39 the authorities and things like that. 09:41 It's always with this attitude of love, the compassion, 09:43 and it's, you know, and I think that we should do 09:47 that in every aspect of our life whether 09:49 it's with our family member or it's with our employers. 09:53 And certainly with lots of prayer and study beforehand 09:58 as far as if you have a particular concern or issue, 10:01 you know, with your colleague or with your employer 10:04 or you know, with the church member, a fellow church member. 10:08 You want to approach that, you know, 10:10 with Christ's presence in the room. 10:12 And if you're, you know, feel that this is a conversation 10:17 that Christ is involved with, it's difficult 10:20 to them be antagonistic and--Absolutely. 10:23 I think it's a wonderful spiritual analysis of it. 10:28 Now I want to jump to another level. 10:30 As we come towards time of stress in crisis, 10:34 which I think most people know. 10:36 But then I see in it the fulfillment 10:39 of the Bibles, end of day's scenario 10:41 where there is a final persecution and so on. 10:44 I know from reading the Bible. 10:46 I know advice was given within Adventism by unwanted. 10:49 Sometimes the worst enemies are those within the church. 10:52 And when we explain this dynamic 10:54 that it's not a right, but it's often as expression 10:58 of disloyalty we see it for what it is. 11:00 But so often in the communist era not long gone 11:03 in the Soviet Union, within the church there was someone 11:06 who was mad over something that went 11:08 and set the authorities and the church. 11:10 We want to avoid that sort 11:11 of persecution. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. 11:14 No, we always want to look 11:16 to what's the ultimate goal of an organization. 11:19 Is it, you know, is it more important that I am right about 11:22 something or is it, you know, most important 11:25 that another individual develops a relationship with Christ. 11:29 I think we can all answer that it's the latter on that one. 11:33 And so with any situation, with any interaction, 11:36 with any relationship I think just involve in Christ 11:39 in that conversation in that dialogue and we can't go wrong. 11:45 One of the more contentious scenes 11:47 from Mel Gibson's Passion was when the Jewish priests 11:51 were before Roman Authority 11:53 is calling for the blood of the false prophet. 11:56 Of course, Jesus was not a false prophet. 11:58 But the dynamic is interesting. 12:01 Setting aside the assumption by some 12:04 that this was a bad portrayal of the Jewish people 12:07 I think that misses the point 12:09 and there is a historical reality to that what happened. 12:12 It is often the case that church people 12:16 use the power of the state to harass or even persecute 12:21 and on occasions kill other church people. 12:24 That is the sort of religious dynamic 12:26 that is very much a Religious Liberty concern. 12:29 But within a church when there are disputations, 12:32 when there are differences as when Paul got up 12:36 in the Jerusalem council and upgraded Peter 12:39 and then as a result they came to a clear decision on an issue. 12:42 That is not a Religious Liberty question. 12:46 That is a matter of conscious. 12:47 That is a matter for something to result. 12:50 But it is not a Religious Liberty question. 12:53 We need to keep pa clear distinction 12:55 between these different dynamics. 12:59 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17