Welcome back to
"Liberty Insider."
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Before the break
we were getting into
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a discussion
you don't often hear
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about Religious
Liberty within a church.
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It's a relate to
some of these dissensions
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and doctrinal
disputations and even
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cases where
someone's feels injured,
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imagine life's to may be ejected
or lives in a high dungeon.
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I should use that
word because that invokes
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to me the inquisition. Yes.
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But as I was telling
you before in the break
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that it gets closer to
where I think we need to look
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for Religious Liberty question
talking about Martin Luther.
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Right. He had
every right to question
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his church's believes but he
did not do it as an outsider.
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He did it as an insider
thinking he could change it.
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And then what happened?
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What did the
Pope do, you remember?
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Okay, I think they
sentenced him to death.
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They issued a Papal Bull. Yes.
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An excommunication and
a ball that pretty much
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brought the--not
just the church pass,
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but the civil pass down on him.
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His very life
was at threat then.
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Now that's a
Religious Liberty question
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because what was happening
there was coercion. Yes.
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Now as a member of the Adventist
church or the Baptist church
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or whatever, they
can't really coerce me.
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They can bring social pressure
on me but I can leave anytime.
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It's a free
association. Absolutely. Right.
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I can practice whatever
faith I want somewhere else.
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I could be in another religion
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or whatever, but
they are not forcing me.
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Most of my free
will is not hesitant
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but in the dynamic of the middle
age it was a different thing.
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If you're
different from the church
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you could be imprisoned.
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You could be
burned as a heretic.
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But that didn't
happen instantly.
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The progression was
more and more dangerous.
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So there was a lot
at stake. Yes, yes.
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And I think-- I
absolutely agree with that.
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But I also think we're
gonna make sure and say
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that we're not suggesting
that individual church
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members or even
representatives of church
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should be, you know, automatons.
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And just blindly,
you know, spouting
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here's the beliefs of
this church and notes,
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you know, I think that our
beliefs can only be sincere
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if they are
personal beliefs. Absolutely.
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And so you know, we need to
be able to--as we, you know,
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I went up to the Adventist
school system, education system.
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And we were
thought particular things,
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but we also need to
learn those things on our own.
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We need to--this relationship
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with Christ
needs to be personal.
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Otherwise it's not sincere.
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It's not a relationship
if it's not sincere.
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And so we need to
have that freedom,
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individual freedom to be able to
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develop that
relationship on our own.
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You know, I thought the
church of the Middle Ages
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or the Reformation
period and I don't think
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the Roman Catholic Church
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is wanting to
defend that era very much.
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They disavowed in
memory of reconciliation,
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document nearly 10
years ago I think now.
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But I must say that
today the Roman Catholic Church
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is even showing a
more appropriate model
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like on the issue of
abortion and contraception,
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and the Latin, the Vulgate mess.
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There's great differences,
the church hierarchy
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make their opinions know.
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But people are not constrained
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or forced to
act the certain way.
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There's more of a
free association of work
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even in the
Roman Catholic Church,
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which by its nature
is more authoritarian.
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Right. Well, it's interesting.
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There is the situation with
the nuns in the Catholic Church
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who have got in trouble
with Pope Benedict for being,
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you know, having social service
positions that are inconsistent.
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And so there is that drama
there here in North America.
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But at least they're not using--
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well, we don't know what happens
in the closed monasteries,
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but still, I mean that-- I
shouldn't even joke with that.
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Right. But clearly
in the modern model
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even the Roman Catholic Church
which had a medieval problem
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is in a phase
following Vatican too
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where they see what we're
talking about that you can't--
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in the modern world, you
can't force and control people.
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Absolutely, yes.
There's all sorts of ultimatums
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and dictates that are given.
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That is fine. I mean
it's a social dynamic,
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but it's not Religious Liberty.
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It might be a moral-- I mean,
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often a very real
moral differences at work.
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Yeah. But back
to where we started,
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like I say, I can't
imagine a Seventh-day Adventist
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pastor for example who
has gone through seminary.
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He's been baptized and
has ceded to set of believes
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that
characterized our organization.
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I can't imagine him
for example going online
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and being
interviewed let's just say,
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and giving a self description
of what an Adventist church.
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It is just, you
know, another universe
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than what he is paid to
represent. Right. Right.
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To me, that is morally
wrong and may be the church
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can't do anything to him.
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They wouldn't want to
because he's a moral agent.
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But he has broken-- we
always used to talk about
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social contract in society.
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But he has broken a
certain moral contract.
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A sort of covenant, yeah.
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Covenant with the
church. Yeah. Yeah.
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I-- And that's not
a Religious Liberty.
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He's not exercising
Religious Liberty rights.
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He's just showing disloyalty.
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Yes. Yes. And I think we
look at other faith groups.
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We see
particular issues going on.
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We've actually seen,
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you know, whole
sections of churches divide.
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You know, world as
organization, in world--
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you know, churches
of organizations divide
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because of
situations like that where
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representatives--local
representatives have felt
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more and more
comfortable saying,
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"actually this is
the way that we're gonna,
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you know, run our church."
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Thinking
particularly of Anglican Church
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and the situation
where the same sex--
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There's a schism
coming in basically
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because of it. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean--
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And these are
very unfortunate things
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but they're not religiously
liberty in the classic sense.
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Right. Right. But I think--
I think unity within the church
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is so important as far
as-- I mean our whole goal
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is to be able to share,
to be able to evangelist,
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to be able to
share Christ with others.
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And I think we can
do most effectively
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through a united
world church. Absolutely.
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And so, you know, to me
that's the real priority.
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Again, I am not saying
that people should be muscled
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by any means, but I
feel like as Christians
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we need to be first
of all be respectful,
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you know, of our
church organization.
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Wasn't there a
Bible text that says,
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"Love for Christ
can strains me?" Oh!
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So there's a-- That's
probably not one we quote a lot.
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So you're not forced in a
church as a free association.
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But there are
constrains, moral constrains
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and eternal constrains
that should be on paper.
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It's not free go to
just criticize, tear down,
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break down the structure
and I am not picking on
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at all on my own church.
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But as I look at,
you know, we mentioned
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different churches on ordination
of priests or ministers
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and women's ordination
and these sort of things,
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they're happening in
many different churches.
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But first of all
these are very unfortunate.
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People are showing, I
think often disloyalty
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either to the
structure or to the beliefs
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that they have
joined themselves to.
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But they cannot cry foul
when they brought to task
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verbally and saying
their Religious Liberty
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is being impended on. Right.
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Right. I don't think so at all.
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No. I agree with you
that I--it is much more
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of an employment issue.
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Or an association question.
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Or an association
question. If you're no longer
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like-minded with these people
then you go somewhere else.
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Right. Right. And it
seems odd that it is unique to,
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you know, church organizations.
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You don't see that
even if I think about
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other non profit situations.
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You know, if all
of sudden, you know,
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you have a different view on,
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you know, aid or development
or something like that.
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You don't see people
defend, suing their employer
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for not allowing
to have that view
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even in a non-profit situation.
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So, it's interesting that
it's really the individual
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conscious that people are--
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It's interesting that
in the time of the judges
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in the Old
Testament, after the prophets--
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really there
was a time of chaos.
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And the judges were just
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religious
strongmen that came out.
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Sometimes they were militarily
strong as well as religious,
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but they were sort of--
like Samson was one of them.
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He's a strong man.
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But in the time of
judges that comment
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was made that "every man
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did what was
right in his own sight."
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And we need to be
careful while I say
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this is not a Religious Liberty
issue in the structural sense
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and so Liberty
Magazine doesn't have articles
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about internal debates. Right.
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But I do believe that
looking at these dissensions
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that's a lot of what's going on.
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I see them as the sign of
basically personal rebellion
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that they're not--well,
elsewhere the Bible says,
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"Let this mind be in you
that was in Christ Jesus."
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I don't think we
can characterize Jesus.
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He is purposely
creating dissensions.
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Even though when He stood up
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and spoke the
truth, they stoned him.
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They tried to
stone him on couple
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of occasions and
crucified Him. Right.
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Now I think if we
look at the gospel
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and so the witness of
Christ and all the instructions
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that were given on how
to deal with each other,
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you know, how to
deal with government,
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the authorities
and things like that.
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It's always with this attitude
of love, the compassion,
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and it's, you know, and
I think that we should do
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that in every
aspect of our life whether
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it's with our family member
or it's with our employers.
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And certainly with lots of
prayer and study beforehand
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as far as if you have a
particular concern or issue,
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you know, with your
colleague or with your employer
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or you know, with the church
member, a fellow church member.
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You want to
approach that, you know,
00:10:08.32\00:10:10.49
with Christ's
presence in the room.
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And if you're, you know,
feel that this is a conversation
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that Christ is
involved with, it's difficult
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to them be
antagonistic and--Absolutely.
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I think it's a wonderful
spiritual analysis of it.
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Now I want to
jump to another level.
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As we come towards
time of stress in crisis,
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which I think most people know.
00:10:34.29\00:10:36.63
But then I see in
it the fulfillment
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of the Bibles,
end of day's scenario
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where there is a
final persecution and so on.
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I know from reading the Bible.
00:10:44.57\00:10:46.30
I know advice was given
within Adventism by unwanted.
00:10:46.33\00:10:49.16
Sometimes the worst enemies
are those within the church.
00:10:49.19\00:10:52.22
And when we explain this dynamic
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that it's not a right,
but it's often as expression
00:10:54.65\00:10:58.57
of disloyalty we
see it for what it is.
00:10:58.60\00:11:00.45
But so often in the
communist era not long gone
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in the Soviet Union, within
the church there was someone
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who was mad over
something that went
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and set the
authorities and the church.
00:11:08.73\00:11:10.40
We want to avoid that sort
00:11:10.43\00:11:11.93
of persecution. Yes.
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:11:11.96\00:11:14.35
No, we always want to look
00:11:14.38\00:11:15.97
to what's the ultimate
goal of an organization.
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Is it, you know, is it more
important that I am right about
00:11:19.20\00:11:22.62
something or is it,
you know, most important
00:11:22.65\00:11:25.47
that another individual develops
a relationship with Christ.
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I think we can all answer that
it's the latter on that one.
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And so with any
situation, with any interaction,
00:11:33.14\00:11:36.44
with any relationship I
think just involve in Christ
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in that conversation in that
dialogue and we can't go wrong.
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One of the more
contentious scenes
00:11:45.50\00:11:47.67
from Mel Gibson's Passion
was when the Jewish priests
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were before Roman Authority
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is calling for the
blood of the false prophet.
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Of course, Jesus
was not a false prophet.
00:11:56.17\00:11:58.46
But the dynamic is interesting.
00:11:58.49\00:12:01.41
Setting aside the
assumption by some
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that this was a bad
portrayal of the Jewish people
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I think that misses the point
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and there is a historical
reality to that what happened.
00:12:09.21\00:12:12.67
It is often the
case that church people
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use the power of the state
to harass or even persecute
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and on occasions
kill other church people.
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That is the sort
of religious dynamic
00:12:24.79\00:12:26.60
that is very much a
Religious Liberty concern.
00:12:26.63\00:12:29.94
But within a church
when there are disputations,
00:12:29.97\00:12:32.46
when there are
differences as when Paul got up
00:12:32.49\00:12:36.08
in the Jerusalem
council and upgraded Peter
00:12:36.11\00:12:39.32
and then as a result they came
to a clear decision on an issue.
00:12:39.35\00:12:42.70
That is not a
Religious Liberty question.
00:12:42.73\00:12:46.00
That is a matter of conscious.
00:12:46.03\00:12:47.69
That is a matter
for something to result.
00:12:47.72\00:12:50.25
But it is not a
Religious Liberty question.
00:12:50.28\00:12:53.34
We need to keep
pa clear distinction
00:12:53.37\00:12:55.91
between these
different dynamics.
00:12:55.94\00:12:59.96
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:59.99\00:13:03.41