Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reid
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000190A
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00:22 Welcome to "Liberty Insider." This is the program
00:25 that brings you news, views, discussion 00:28 and information on religious liberty issues 00:31 in The United States and around the world. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on this program is Melissa Reid, 00:39 Associate for Liberty Magazine. 00:41 Yes, it's a pleasure to be working with you 00:42 in a different capacity. Haven't seen you for long time, 00:44 but it's good to have you on this program. 00:46 And this is the program as I try to tell our viewers 00:49 that tackle some really interesting issues on occasion. 00:52 Religious liberty is always interesting, 00:54 but sometimes it gets just down right squirrelly. 00:59 Now, when you're dealing with the government 01:02 in the United Sates more and more, 01:03 the issue is not really always religious liberty, 01:07 its conscience. Yes. 01:10 Like in the workplaces as you know. 01:11 We featured in Liberty Magazine a lot of workplace issues 01:16 and for Seventh-day Adventist we have a legal team 01:18 that will defend peoples' right for Sabbath accommodation so. 01:21 And I've noticed over and over again, 01:24 it isn't whether your church says 01:26 that you must cease from work on Saturday 01:28 or Sunday, you know whatever. Yes. 01:30 It's how you wonder a conviction 01:32 that this is something to do. 01:33 Yes, yes, I think that's an important decision. 01:35 We've seen that with the--may be like labor union situations. 01:38 Absolutely, so we do. And that's a good principle 01:42 of the enlightenment and of the principles 01:44 that the United Sates was formed on. 01:48 The right of the individual for self-determination. 01:50 What was it, "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." 01:52 Yes, yes. 01:54 So it all comes under that. Yes. 01:55 But there is a side of religious liberty 01:57 that's troubled me a little more--little lightly 02:00 and it seem superficially to involve 02:03 the same principle but it is an important distinction. 02:05 Right, the organization has been given sort 02:10 of same rights as the individual. Is that what you-- 02:12 It's within a church. Yes. 02:14 What happens when someone has a great difference of opinion 02:17 or may be even he's treated harshly. Yes. 02:21 Sometimes has to leave a religious organization, 02:24 is that a religious liberty question? 02:26 Right. Well, we saw that recently with a case-- 02:29 Supreme Court case and I won't be able 02:31 to remember the name of it but an individual, 02:33 who we saw, you know, does a church have 02:37 a right to decide who to hire and fire, who to-- 02:41 That was the Hosanna-Tabor case. 02:43 Exactly. Yes. You know, does the-- 02:46 and it was part of their religious tenet 02:49 and with this faith group, I've forgotten-- 02:51 Was the Lutheran school. Lutheran, okay. 02:53 That an individual couldn't-- doesn't take others 02:58 or take their church to court. 03:00 And this individual, this-- he was a teacher had done that. 03:04 And so they were saying, 03:05 "it was their religious liberty right." 03:08 Their freedom of conscience in order to be able to handle 03:11 this situation internally and they have 03:13 the right to fire this individual. 03:16 And I think that was an interesting case as far as 03:19 religious liberty goes. That was an interesting case 03:20 and it was legally settled with the resounding affirmation 03:24 of what was called-- has been called 03:26 the ministerial exemption. Yes. 03:28 Or exception. Yes. 03:30 Where all the church operations with these ministers 03:33 and official representatives, including teachers 03:36 that the state was not going to interfere. 03:39 Even if, as in this case it appeared 03:42 that she was treated little high handedly 03:45 because of her disability. Right. 03:47 That didn't matter because to try to find it out 03:50 that the state understands that it might then be impeding 03:55 the regular practice of faith. Right. 03:57 To bring the civil justice there. 03:59 So the church basically has an exemption. Yes. 04:01 But does it have a moral exemption? 04:04 Well, I know that I worked 04:06 for the Seventh-day Adventist church 04:07 Liberty is published by Seventh-day Adventist church. 04:09 And I know that I am not just expected 04:13 but I signed a contract with my employer saying 04:17 that I will represent the values 04:19 and the standards of the Seventh-day Adventist church. 04:21 So I understand that as far as, you know, 04:25 when I go to promote religious freedom 04:27 at a local church level or anything that we write 04:29 in the magazine is not going to be contrary 04:33 to the attendants of this faith group. 04:35 That's my view. I often thought that-- 04:37 anyhow I've lived long enough to see many ministers 04:41 of many different denominations, 04:42 even some of my own who will write things on occasion, 04:47 preach things that are in direct contradiction 04:50 to the officially held views of their organization. 04:54 So do they have the right of exercising religious liberty 04:59 or is it something a little more rebellious nature 05:05 and not really a God given right. 05:08 Yeah. Well, it's interesting because the individuals, 05:11 I think we've seen this unfortunately 05:12 more and more in recent years. 05:15 And the individuals that are speaking against, 05:18 you know, the beliefs of a church 05:20 or and of our church specifically I think-- 05:24 it seems like local representatives, 05:26 local you know, whether-- it's a local church pastor 05:29 or teacher or something like that are feeling more and more 05:32 comfortable that they have 05:33 this individual right or responsibility. 05:35 But it's interesting, I always feel like 05:38 I don't see that in a secular world at all. 05:41 I don't ever see an employee of Microsoft feel like it's-- 05:44 you know, it's good to go out and talk about, 05:47 you know, what a great product Apple is putting out. 05:49 You know, you just-- 05:51 Well, I thought of this recently 05:52 when I went to the BMW factory in Ohio. 05:56 Is it in Ohio? It's on the way down-- 05:58 no, it couldn't be in Ohio. On the way down to Atlanta. 06:02 Just across the straight lines. 06:03 So what state is next door to them? Carolina. Okay. 06:08 It must be in South Carolina. 06:10 There's the factory there where they're making mostly 06:12 one series BMWs, but the car is not out there, 06:15 it's the little one, smaller than the 3 Series. 06:20 And I was quite taken with the fact 06:22 that the parking lot was mostly full of BMWs. 06:25 And I found out, oh, yes, they get a special leasing deal 06:28 and they're all encouraged to buy and drive a BMW. Right. 06:31 I mean, they're not forbidden to drive anything else 06:34 but there is an expectation of loyalty even 06:36 if it's just for civilian, 06:38 for one of the better word, employment. Right. 06:40 And what you said in a church is definitely true. 06:43 A minister or a church functionary, 06:45 I think it's a matter of employment 06:47 not religious liberty that they're called 06:50 the principals of that religious organizations replace them. 06:53 But it is a bit broader than that. 06:55 What about the member of a church? 06:58 Should they be indulging themselves 07:01 in challenging and questioning and even fighting against 07:05 a view of the church that they hold? 07:07 Well, if I sort of put on my individual church member hat, 07:12 I feel like, you know, I feel like I've the right to-- 07:15 if I'm sitting in Sabbath school class, 07:18 you know, have a conversation, and you know, sort of speak-- 07:22 this is and again I don't want to say my beliefs. 07:26 I want to say, because I feel like 07:27 it should all be Bible based. 07:29 This is what I've been convicted 07:30 are based on my study of the Bible. 07:31 It shouldn't just be one of my pep pieces 07:33 when you go Sabbath school class 07:35 and they say, "Well, I think this." 07:37 Well, but what does God say about something you know? 07:39 And so, I feel like the individual has 07:42 the right to speak about things. 07:44 I don't-- but I again, if you are, you know, 07:49 I love, I love my church because I believe in it 07:54 and I believe that it's, 07:56 you know, the God has blessed it. 07:58 And so for me to do that I would feel-- I mean for me to do 08:02 that especially in a public arena. 08:05 You know, may be I wrote an editorial 08:07 to the local paper or may be I, you know, got on TV somehow 08:10 and I would feel like that was-- It would be under cutting 08:13 the very organization that you not as a contract 08:17 but as a matter of personal commitment 08:19 that you're trying to uphold. Yeah. 08:21 You know, Paul said that, "It's not good for brother 08:24 to take brother to court." Right. 08:26 That's the reason, its not that there might 08:27 not be a legal issue, a true legal issue there, 08:30 but you really bring in to disrepute 08:32 the whole organization. Right, or if you-- 08:34 Of whole moral endeavor. Yeah. Or if you see someone 08:37 behaving in a way, you know, if I saw you behaving 08:41 in a particular way, we're instructed to go 08:44 and have a private conversation with the individual. 08:46 Not go up to the platform of the church and say, 08:48 you know, look what this man is doing. 08:51 And so I sort of feel that same way as others. 08:53 So there--yeah, there are procedures 08:54 in the Bible and of course not all of our viewers 08:59 are Christians or Bible believing people of faith. 09:01 These are the religious viewpoints. 09:03 But I think the dynamic of disagreement 09:06 within a religious structure is what we're talking about. 09:10 The way I see it, as a sovereign individual 09:13 with free rights, within our free country. 09:17 Yeah, I think you have the right to speak up 09:19 and perhaps even challenge what the church holds. 09:22 But you don't have the right or-- 09:25 it's not an appropriate model to say that you've been victimized. 09:29 If on so doing you find yourself somewhat out of harmony 09:33 that you are the leave your membership in the high fit 09:38 or the organization might save your relationship. 09:41 Right, right. Well, one thing 09:43 I find interesting is if I am not comfortable 09:49 with an organization, if I realize you know, 09:52 I'm associate with particular organization. 09:55 I know that in the past the religious liberty department 09:59 of Seventh-day Adventist church worked with another organization 10:02 in having a religious liberty institute 10:04 the Americans United for Separation of Church and State. 10:07 Well, then it so happened that they sort of took 10:11 a direction with their religious freedom issues 10:13 that we were not comfortable with it all and we sort 10:15 of disassociated ourselves with that relationship. 10:18 And I feel it's interesting if I am a local pastor 10:22 or a local church member, why you know, 10:26 if you feel like you are now not comfortable 10:30 with the support with the organization 10:32 that you are supposed to be supporting 10:34 and representing to your local congregations. 10:38 Why is your response to be critical 10:41 or vocal rather than just not being associated 10:44 with them anymore? Yeah. 10:46 Now these are serious questions. 10:48 As I started this discussion, you know, I hade it in mind 10:51 and that's a good reference for Protestants 10:54 to think back on Martin Luther. 10:56 He was a Roman Catholic priest. 10:58 Most Protestants have forgotten his origin. 11:00 And he was a loyal Roman Catholic priest. 11:03 In fact, too loyal because he pretty much condemned himself 11:08 with the church's claims and was an aesthetic 11:11 to it's degree and lay awake with the hair suit 11:14 and the hard beard and all of those. 11:17 He believed it. Yes. 11:18 And then he went to Rome, saw things that troubled him, 11:21 studied the Bible which curiously enough 11:24 not all the priest did. But he was, because 11:26 he was professor of--was it homiletics. 11:29 Anyhow, he was teaching the homiletics, 11:33 with his preaching skills. But I know he was teaching 11:35 theology to the-- at the university 11:39 and he suddenly thought, man. 11:41 The standard view of my church is not thoroughly biblical. 11:44 I'm gonna correct it. Right. 11:46 He didn't think I'm gonna leave it. 11:47 Oh, he loved-- I'm gonna sort them out. 11:49 Yes. Now, he loved his church and he wanted-- 11:51 and he loved his fellow believers. 11:53 And so he wanted the best for not just himself. 11:55 I mean, he wanted the truth not just for himself but for all 11:58 of his Catholic brethrens. So what's the difference between 12:00 Martin Luther then and what we're invoking now? 12:04 And I'd spelled it out but I'm thinking of, 12:07 you know, issues of gay pastors, these issues of orthodoxy, 12:12 attitudes within Southern Baptist, 12:15 on inter-racial marriage and things like that. 12:17 There's issues of women's ordination. 12:20 There are some common issues that list 12:22 in the United States Protestant and some Catholic churches, 12:25 they're all warring though and people are being ejected 12:28 and claming foul on all of this. 12:30 Needs to be equated with Martin Luther 12:32 back in those days? What's a key difference? 12:34 Well, I think for me-- first of all I think 12:39 that Martin Luther was definitely motivated 12:41 by the Holy Spirit and he wanted to work through his local church 12:45 and he did it with an attitude of love and sincerity. 12:50 And not wanting to-- it was not wanting it to be an attack. 12:56 That's true. It's a great discussion. 12:59 We'll be back after a short break 13:00 to continue this discussion 13:02 of religious liberty within the church. |
Revised 2014-12-17