Welcome to "Liberty
Insider." This is the program
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that brings you
news, views, discussion
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and information on
religious liberty issues
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in The United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Melissa Reid,
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Associate for Liberty Magazine.
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Yes, it's a pleasure
to be working with you
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in a different capacity.
Haven't seen you for long time,
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but it's good to
have you on this program.
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And this is the program
as I try to tell our viewers
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that tackle some really
interesting issues on occasion.
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Religious liberty
is always interesting,
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but sometimes it gets
just down right squirrelly.
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Now, when you're
dealing with the government
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in the United
Sates more and more,
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the issue is not really
always religious liberty,
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its conscience. Yes.
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Like in the
workplaces as you know.
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We featured in Liberty Magazine
a lot of workplace issues
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and for Seventh-day
Adventist we have a legal team
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that will defend peoples' right
for Sabbath accommodation so.
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And I've noticed
over and over again,
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it isn't
whether your church says
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that you must cease
from work on Saturday
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or Sunday, you
know whatever. Yes.
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It's how you wonder a conviction
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that this is something to do.
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Yes, yes, I think
that's an important decision.
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We've seen that with the--may
be like labor union situations.
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Absolutely, so we do.
And that's a good principle
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of the enlightenment
and of the principles
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that the United
Sates was formed on.
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The right of the individual
for self-determination.
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What was it, "Life, Liberty,
and the pursuit of Happiness."
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Yes, yes.
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So it all comes under that. Yes.
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But there is a side
of religious liberty
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that's troubled me a
little more--little lightly
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and it seem
superficially to involve
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the same principle but it
is an important distinction.
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Right, the
organization has been given sort
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of same rights as the
individual. Is that what you--
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It's within a church. Yes.
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What happens when someone has
a great difference of opinion
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or may be even he's
treated harshly. Yes.
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Sometimes has to leave
a religious organization,
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is that a
religious liberty question?
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Right. Well, we saw
that recently with a case--
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Supreme Court case
and I won't be able
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to remember the name
of it but an individual,
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who we saw, you
know, does a church have
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a right to decide who
to hire and fire, who to--
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That was the Hosanna-Tabor case.
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Exactly. Yes.
You know, does the--
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and it was part of
their religious tenet
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and with this faith
group, I've forgotten--
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Was the Lutheran
school. Lutheran, okay.
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That an individual
couldn't-- doesn't take others
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or take their church to court.
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And this individual, this--
he was a teacher had done that.
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And so they were saying,
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"it was their
religious liberty right."
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Their freedom of conscience
in order to be able to handle
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this situation
internally and they have
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the right to
fire this individual.
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And I think that was an
interesting case as far as
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religious liberty goes.
That was an interesting case
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and it was legally settled
with the resounding affirmation
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of what was
called-- has been called
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the ministerial exemption. Yes.
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Or exception. Yes.
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Where all the church
operations with these ministers
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and official representatives,
including teachers
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that the state was
not going to interfere.
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Even if, as in
this case it appeared
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that she was
treated little high handedly
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because of her
disability. Right.
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That didn't matter
because to try to find it out
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that the state understands
that it might then be impeding
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the regular
practice of faith. Right.
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To bring the
civil justice there.
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So the church
basically has an exemption. Yes.
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But does it have
a moral exemption?
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Well, I know that I worked
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist church
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Liberty is published by
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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And I know that I
am not just expected
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but I signed a
contract with my employer saying
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that I will represent the values
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and the standards of the
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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So I understand
that as far as, you know,
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when I go to
promote religious freedom
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at a local church level
or anything that we write
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in the magazine is
not going to be contrary
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to the attendants
of this faith group.
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That's my view. I
often thought that--
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anyhow I've lived long
enough to see many ministers
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of many different denominations,
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even some of my own who
will write things on occasion,
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preach things that are
in direct contradiction
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to the officially held
views of their organization.
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So do they have the right
of exercising religious liberty
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or is it something a
little more rebellious nature
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and not really
a God given right.
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Yeah. Well, it's interesting
because the individuals,
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I think we've
seen this unfortunately
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more and more in recent years.
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And the individuals
that are speaking against,
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you know, the
beliefs of a church
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or and of our church
specifically I think--
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it seems like
local representatives,
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local you know, whether--
it's a local church pastor
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or teacher or something like
that are feeling more and more
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comfortable that they have
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this individual
right or responsibility.
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But it's
interesting, I always feel like
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I don't see that in
a secular world at all.
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I don't ever see an employee
of Microsoft feel like it's--
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you know, it's good
to go out and talk about,
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you know, what a great
product Apple is putting out.
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You know, you just--
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Well, I thought of this recently
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when I went to the
BMW factory in Ohio.
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Is it in Ohio?
It's on the way down--
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no, it couldn't be in Ohio.
On the way down to Atlanta.
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Just across the straight lines.
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So what state is next
door to them? Carolina. Okay.
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It must be in South Carolina.
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There's the factory there
where they're making mostly
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one series BMWs, but
the car is not out there,
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it's the little one,
smaller than the 3 Series.
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And I was quite
taken with the fact
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that the parking lot
was mostly full of BMWs.
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And I found out, oh, yes,
they get a special leasing deal
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and they're all encouraged
to buy and drive a BMW. Right.
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I mean, they're not
forbidden to drive anything else
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but there is an
expectation of loyalty even
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if it's just for civilian,
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for one of the better
word, employment. Right.
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And what you said in a
church is definitely true.
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A minister or a
church functionary,
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I think it's a
matter of employment
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not religious
liberty that they're called
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the principals of that religious
organizations replace them.
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But it is a bit
broader than that.
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What about the
member of a church?
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Should they be
indulging themselves
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in challenging and questioning
and even fighting against
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a view of the
church that they hold?
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Well, if I sort of put on my
individual church member hat,
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I feel like, you know, I
feel like I've the right to--
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if I'm sitting in
Sabbath school class,
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you know, have a conversation,
and you know, sort of speak--
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this is and again I
don't want to say my beliefs.
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I want to say,
because I feel like
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it should all be Bible based.
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This is what I've been convicted
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are based on my
study of the Bible.
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It shouldn't just
be one of my pep pieces
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when you go Sabbath school class
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and they say,
"Well, I think this."
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Well, but what does God
say about something you know?
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And so, I feel
like the individual has
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the right to speak about things.
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I don't-- but I
again, if you are, you know,
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I love, I love my
church because I believe in it
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and I believe that it's,
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you know, the
God has blessed it.
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And so for me to do that I
would feel-- I mean for me to do
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that especially
in a public arena.
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You know, may be
I wrote an editorial
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to the local paper or may be
I, you know, got on TV somehow
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and I would feel like that
was-- It would be under cutting
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the very organization
that you not as a contract
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but as a matter of
personal commitment
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that you're
trying to uphold. Yeah.
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You know, Paul said that,
"It's not good for brother
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to take brother
to court." Right.
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That's the reason,
its not that there might
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not be a legal issue,
a true legal issue there,
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but you really
bring in to disrepute
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the whole
organization. Right, or if you--
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Of whole moral endeavor.
Yeah. Or if you see someone
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behaving in a way, you
know, if I saw you behaving
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in a particular way,
we're instructed to go
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and have a private conversation
with the individual.
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Not go up to the
platform of the church and say,
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you know, look
what this man is doing.
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And so I sort of feel
that same way as others.
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So there--yeah,
there are procedures
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in the Bible and of
course not all of our viewers
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are Christians or Bible
believing people of faith.
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These are the
religious viewpoints.
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But I think the
dynamic of disagreement
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within a religious structure
is what we're talking about.
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The way I see it, as
a sovereign individual
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with free rights,
within our free country.
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Yeah, I think you
have the right to speak up
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and perhaps even
challenge what the church holds.
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But you don't
have the right or--
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it's not an appropriate model to
say that you've been victimized.
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If on so doing you find
yourself somewhat out of harmony
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that you are the leave
your membership in the high fit
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or the organization
might save your relationship.
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Right, right. Well, one thing
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I find interesting is
if I am not comfortable
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with an organization,
if I realize you know,
00:09:49.96\00:09:52.49
I'm associate with
particular organization.
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I know that in the past the
religious liberty department
00:09:55.80\00:09:59.02
of Seventh-day Adventist church
worked with another organization
00:09:59.05\00:10:02.51
in having a
religious liberty institute
00:10:02.54\00:10:04.90
the Americans United for
Separation of Church and State.
00:10:04.93\00:10:07.29
Well, then it so
happened that they sort of took
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a direction with their
religious freedom issues
00:10:11.52\00:10:13.73
that we were not comfortable
with it all and we sort
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of disassociated ourselves
with that relationship.
00:10:15.67\00:10:18.61
And I feel it's interesting
if I am a local pastor
00:10:18.64\00:10:22.27
or a local church
member, why you know,
00:10:22.30\00:10:26.41
if you feel like you
are now not comfortable
00:10:26.44\00:10:30.36
with the support
with the organization
00:10:30.39\00:10:32.39
that you are
supposed to be supporting
00:10:32.42\00:10:34.30
and representing to
your local congregations.
00:10:34.33\00:10:37.99
Why is your
response to be critical
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or vocal rather than
just not being associated
00:10:41.19\00:10:44.92
with them anymore? Yeah.
00:10:44.95\00:10:46.53
Now these are serious questions.
00:10:46.56\00:10:48.82
As I started this discussion,
you know, I hade it in mind
00:10:48.85\00:10:51.72
and that's a good
reference for Protestants
00:10:51.75\00:10:54.12
to think back on Martin Luther.
00:10:54.15\00:10:56.95
He was a Roman Catholic priest.
00:10:56.98\00:10:58.46
Most Protestants
have forgotten his origin.
00:10:58.49\00:11:00.38
And he was a loyal
Roman Catholic priest.
00:11:00.41\00:11:03.81
In fact, too loyal because
he pretty much condemned himself
00:11:03.84\00:11:08.29
with the church's
claims and was an aesthetic
00:11:08.32\00:11:11.50
to it's degree and lay
awake with the hair suit
00:11:11.53\00:11:14.94
and the hard
beard and all of those.
00:11:14.97\00:11:17.18
He believed it. Yes.
00:11:17.21\00:11:18.58
And then he went to Rome,
saw things that troubled him,
00:11:18.61\00:11:21.73
studied the Bible
which curiously enough
00:11:21.76\00:11:24.32
not all the priest
did. But he was, because
00:11:24.35\00:11:26.73
he was professor
of--was it homiletics.
00:11:26.76\00:11:29.60
Anyhow, he was
teaching the homiletics,
00:11:29.63\00:11:32.98
with his preaching skills.
But I know he was teaching
00:11:33.01\00:11:35.40
theology to
the-- at the university
00:11:35.43\00:11:39.33
and he suddenly thought, man.
00:11:39.36\00:11:41.58
The standard view of my church
is not thoroughly biblical.
00:11:41.61\00:11:44.87
I'm gonna correct it. Right.
00:11:44.90\00:11:46.27
He didn't think
I'm gonna leave it.
00:11:46.30\00:11:47.67
Oh, he loved-- I'm
gonna sort them out.
00:11:47.70\00:11:49.07
Yes. Now, he loved
his church and he wanted--
00:11:49.10\00:11:51.74
and he loved his
fellow believers.
00:11:51.77\00:11:53.42
And so he wanted the
best for not just himself.
00:11:53.45\00:11:55.92
I mean, he wanted the truth
not just for himself but for all
00:11:55.95\00:11:58.87
of his Catholic brethrens.
So what's the difference between
00:11:58.90\00:12:00.85
Martin Luther then and
what we're invoking now?
00:12:00.88\00:12:04.32
And I'd spelled it
out but I'm thinking of,
00:12:04.35\00:12:07.68
you know, issues of gay pastors,
these issues of orthodoxy,
00:12:07.71\00:12:12.92
attitudes within
Southern Baptist,
00:12:12.95\00:12:15.64
on inter-racial
marriage and things like that.
00:12:15.67\00:12:17.94
There's issues of
women's ordination.
00:12:17.97\00:12:20.08
There are some
common issues that list
00:12:20.11\00:12:22.01
in the United States Protestant
and some Catholic churches,
00:12:22.04\00:12:25.01
they're all warring though
and people are being ejected
00:12:25.04\00:12:28.46
and claming foul on all of this.
00:12:28.49\00:12:30.62
Needs to be
equated with Martin Luther
00:12:30.65\00:12:32.26
back in those days?
What's a key difference?
00:12:32.29\00:12:34.66
Well, I think for
me-- first of all I think
00:12:34.69\00:12:39.52
that Martin Luther
was definitely motivated
00:12:39.55\00:12:41.68
by the Holy Spirit and he wanted
to work through his local church
00:12:41.71\00:12:45.91
and he did it with an
attitude of love and sincerity.
00:12:45.94\00:12:50.10
And not wanting to-- it was
not wanting it to be an attack.
00:12:50.13\00:12:56.78
That's true. It's
a great discussion.
00:12:56.81\00:12:59.18
We'll be back
after a short break
00:12:59.21\00:13:00.64
to continue this discussion
00:13:00.67\00:13:02.18
of religious
liberty within the church.
00:13:02.21\00:13:04.30