Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reid
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000188B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break with guest Melissa Reid, 00:09 we were talking about a very troubling development 00:12 in the United States of a man who, 00:15 remember as we discussed it Melissa, a man worshiping 00:17 with some friends in his own home 00:20 ran foul of local government regulations 00:22 and I'm sure he sort of pushed back to, 00:24 but he felt that was a matter of principle 00:26 'cause it always is talking about your faith. 00:28 And the upshot is he's in jail at this point for two months 00:33 in one of the infamous Tent Prisons 00:34 of Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Arizona. 00:39 I think that's a great point as far as 00:41 this is something that he believed very strongly about. 00:44 This is his personal held conviction. 00:46 And I think sometimes we look at situations 00:49 and we say you know well, why didn't he just pay the fine, 00:52 or why didn't he just go register? 00:54 You know, this or that I've heard 00:55 that with sort of colportering situations. 00:58 And I think that's not the point, 01:01 the point is these sorts of situations 01:03 a home Bible study shouldn't be regulated. 01:05 Absolutely. It's not that you know, 01:07 well, it's only 50 bucks 01:08 or a couple of hundred dollars to register this. 01:10 It's that it shouldn't be legislative period. 01:12 I should have jumped in earlier, 01:14 but you used the word colportering. Yes. 01:16 That's term an old term for Seventh - day Adventist 01:19 for booksellers, going door to door. Oh, I'm sorry. 01:21 We need to explain for our larger audience. Sure, sure. 01:24 But it's true very often people 01:26 can look at this situation and think, well, 01:28 that person almost asked for it, they could have 01:29 avoided it. Right, right. 01:31 But I feel like that's not, that's not the point. 01:34 I feel like these are situations like 01:37 this gentleman, I think has decided that he will spend time 01:42 in this Tent City Prison in the middle of Arizona 01:44 and you know, in summer because 01:46 this is his personally held conviction that he you know, 01:50 that this home Bible study 01:52 is not the place of public regulations. Absolutely. 01:56 And I agree with him from a religious freedom perspective. 01:58 Sure, I think anyone that's got a strongly held 02:01 faith would agree with that. 02:03 What it reminds me of, going back several hundred years 02:05 is John Bunyan, the well known I think 02:08 for people that are still biblically or religiously 02:11 literate, the well known author of "Pilgrim's progress." 02:14 Right. You know, he was an independent preacher 02:16 at the time when the church of England 02:18 in England was quite controlling. 02:20 You could only preach in the church, a recognized church 02:25 and someone like John Bunyan an Itinerarium preacher 02:28 who was speaking informally was breaking the law 02:31 and he was in prison at one point for nearly 02:33 fourteen years in bid for jail. Oh, my goodness. 02:36 And there's a classic tale told at that time, 02:40 his wife would follow the judges around 02:43 'cause it's a small town in around 02:44 she would follow the judge around saying, 02:45 "Let my husband go, why are you holding in there?" 02:47 I think the kids were in trail, so here's a destitute woman 02:51 and her husband in jail and she says, "Let him go." 02:54 And the judge says, "Madam," he says "all he has to do 02:57 is stop preaching and we'll let him out." 02:59 And she says, "No, he can't do that." 03:01 Oh, my goodness. That's interesting. 03:02 Again, I was thinking when we look 03:05 at this on the international perspective 03:06 we have the pastor that's jailed in Iran right now--Iran. 03:11 And they're saying all he has to do is recant and say that, 03:16 you know, Muhammad is the prophet, as you know, 03:18 sent from God and it sounds so simple to someone 03:22 who doesn't have those beliefs, but that would be, you know, 03:25 for him as a believer in Christ that's just 03:27 something he absolutely cannot do. 03:29 Yeah, lot of people don't understand you know, 03:30 they think, well, that's a cheap, that- 03:32 Right, it doesn't have to mean it, 03:35 you know, sort of thing. 03:37 And there is a tradition of that maybe I'm taking us 03:41 off on a funny tangent, but you know, in Spain 03:44 in the period the reconquista they called it, that laid up 03:49 to the Spanish inquisition, there were a lot of forced 03:52 conversations of Jews in particular 03:54 and many of them accepted that logic. 03:57 Well, they would say since their life was a parallel, 04:00 they realized they would be ejected from the country. 04:03 Say you're a Christian and then they used to 04:06 practice that their Judaism in private, 04:09 in secret in their home. 04:11 You know, they have to answer before God, 04:13 I'm not condemning them out right, but I think 04:16 anybody that reads the Bible account in Hebrews 04:18 of the faithful you know, going under the gallows and the sword 04:22 and all those for their faith, has to recognize that, yes, 04:24 sometimes faith particularly is so important 04:28 that you take the consequence. 04:29 You can't compromise. Yeah, right, right. 04:31 And I think it's a witness really to, you know, 04:33 this public statement of faith it's really a witness 04:36 to your fellow believers too 04:38 and to those who are not believers, but you know, 04:41 this individual has this conviction 04:42 in their faith so much, I think it's a real testimony. 04:45 And again I hope that some of our viewers 04:47 watch this article, but I will say something 04:49 that they need to keep in mind very often 04:52 in this cases people come at the character 04:55 of the individual and when we make a Christian statement 04:59 and stand for our faith it's always better 05:02 if our life upholds that stance 05:05 like in the workplace, you know. Right. 05:07 Even I deal with the lot of these cases 05:09 where people are wanting Sabbath accommodation. 05:11 Well, it can undercut their case if their life 05:13 doesn't sort of tie in with their commitment. Right. 05:16 If the pastor doesn't recognize them at church and-- 05:19 But legally that shouldn't change the issue 05:22 or even morally what's going. 05:24 If someone is under the conviction at this time 05:27 that should be respected, so in the case of this man 05:31 I know enough of the story to know 05:32 that it's worth reporting on, but it's quite possible 05:35 there are things in his life that are a bit embarrassing. 05:37 He may not be the sort of guy you want necessarily-- 05:40 As you approach their child for a bit- 05:42 He might be a little unbalanced in most people's view 05:45 or some people's views that he's a little bit fanatical. 05:48 You know, that all that maybe, I don't know. 05:50 Maybe none of it or all of it applies. 05:52 But it's quite plain that he is the person 05:54 that has been acting on conviction, 05:56 he's got nothing much to gain from it, 05:58 everything including his literal freedom to lose 06:01 and there is a big principle here that that, 06:03 in a western country, we need to recognize 06:06 that while we say we have freedom of religion 06:08 it can be easily taken away. 06:10 Right, right. When you are describing-- Mr. Saulsman 06:15 or Sausman, I immediately thought of Paul, 06:18 and he's not someone that you would of thought 06:20 of as being you know, the one who was gonna take the gospel 06:23 to the Gentiles and you know, as far as his background, 06:25 but you know, he certainly-- Absolutely, good point. 06:27 Yeah, now when you look at you know, 06:30 all that he did through his witness 06:33 was just incredible, you know. 06:35 Yeah, Paul was under shadow say the least 06:38 with the fellow Christians. 06:40 He was there persecuting. Right. 06:41 The Arch enemy and suddenly saying that God 06:43 has told him to do this and, and it didn't cease. 06:47 In a recent Sabbath school bible study classroom, 06:50 we were discussing this and they were putting Paul up 06:52 so that the acknowledged-- the unquestioned leader 06:55 of the Christian faction. And I said, "No." 06:58 If you look at his letters he was always saying 07:01 that this teacher and that teacher they're doing this 07:04 and you know, I'm no less of an apostle, I've done this. 07:07 It can came across as easy bragging, 07:09 if you read it superficially, but it's obvious to me 07:12 that Paul once so was under a huge personal shadow 07:16 because of unfortunate things he'd done in his private life. 07:19 Right. You know, God forgives us for those 07:23 but if we can maintain a consistent life 07:26 it's much the better. Right. 07:27 But on these religious liberty questions. 07:29 The question is what it is regardless, of who we are. 07:32 Absolutely, absolutely and we all are certainly 07:35 you know, our Christian walk is a journey, 07:39 it's an experience none of us ever reached 07:41 that level of perfection you know, 07:43 that we are so striving for and outside 07:46 of the grace of Christ, but we certainly shouldn't look 07:49 to another individual and say, you know, 07:52 he is not well you know, he did this or that and so therefore, 07:56 his rights or his convictions aren't valid that-- 08:00 I wouldn't want someone doing that for me. 08:03 Let's bounce back to what we both discussed a little bit 08:06 especially in the first half. 08:08 You mentioned China. Yes. 08:10 And I traveled to some Communist in the Soviet era 08:16 and I know that we always characterize 08:19 those types of regimes as doing what this story, 08:23 that we're discussing now and realize 08:25 and I really want to reemphasize 08:29 Christians I think shouldn't be particularly tied 08:32 to any governmental structure. Right. 08:34 Paul said, "That we should honor those in authority, 08:37 there they are standing in for the authority of God." 08:40 People misunderstand it. Yes. 08:41 Doesn't mean they're acting as God would act, 08:43 but they've assumed that role of law and order. 08:47 With one of the king, the dictator, the Polit Bureau, 08:52 whoever it is, but I'm afraid that there's a danger 08:55 in the western world particularly in the U.S. 08:57 most particular we've sort of rolled together, 09:00 our governmental system with sort of God's ideal. 09:02 Yes, I think that a lot of times we equate patriotism 09:08 with our belief, with our you know, Christianity 09:11 and our faith and I think that's dangerous for sure. 09:16 First of all, it's a human institution and you know, 09:20 God's law is the ultimate authority. 09:23 Absolutely, you might be getting uncomfortable 09:27 too and maybe some of our viewers. 09:28 I'm not suggesting and no Christian or reading 09:31 the Bible should ever suggest 09:32 that we act against the state. Right, no. 09:34 But our primary loyalties to God and any state 09:37 that is acting in a positive way we'll find that a Christian 09:42 or a person of faith is the exemplary citizen. 09:45 Right. But our focus should not be on 09:49 that or else you get blind sided thinking as we done 09:52 that yet I need the communist restrict 09:54 you from worshipping in your home, 09:56 when actually it maybe true with you too. 09:58 Yeah, no I think the point is to be vigilant to you know, 10:02 to follow stories like the situation in Arizona 10:06 and understand the repercussions 10:07 and the potential of even where it can go, 10:10 so it's being aware. 10:11 It's not asking you to all of sudden vote against 10:13 the government or anything like that, 10:14 but just see you know, the trends 10:17 and the potential and you know, is that this. 10:19 So what do you think you mentioned the trends 10:22 and you often talk about them? 10:23 You think this is a normally, do you think 10:27 it could happen again, it will happen again? Right. 10:29 Well, its interesting I thought it was interesting 10:31 the first when that we studied 10:33 or that we mentioned in Liberty was in California you know, 10:37 I thought that was interesting and then 10:38 now we have this in Arizona-- Well, there was 10:40 one in Maryland, a couple of years ago. And okay. 10:42 A Jewish couple as I remember 10:44 having some religious meetings. 10:46 Yes, yes, that's right. 10:47 And they are local and that's an issue that was the situation 10:51 of California as well, is that their neighbors 10:53 really had the situation and their neighbors 10:55 drove you know, and again it was the religious aspect of things. 10:59 That bothered them. That bothered them. 11:00 Now this is the case with the Phoenix one, too. 11:04 I noticed that one of the neighbors actually hired 11:07 a private investigator who infiltrated the group 11:11 saying he was related to somebody and gave 11:14 a foot in the door to the argument 11:15 that this was a general public meeting 11:17 not just some friends and close acquaintances. 11:19 Right, right. To answer your question, 11:21 I do feel like yes unfortunately, 11:23 it looks like that is the trend. 11:24 You know, we're seeing at different areas 11:26 across the country, I think that's the reason 11:28 why we speak about it now and why it's-- 11:31 I'm proud of this gentleman for taking this stand 11:34 that he did simply because it brings awareness 11:37 to the issue and we can sort of stop that trend. 11:40 And sometimes it comes from those opposed to religion 11:42 and sometimes those that just want their version 11:44 of religion the mainline one. Right, right. 11:46 Well, this is really been a fun discussion. 11:49 Interesting and like I said, I feel like 11:51 it's an important one for us to pay attention to. 11:54 It's one that should be dear to all of our hearts because 11:59 it's important for us to be able to feel comfortable 12:02 in our own homes studying the word of God. 12:06 As the Acts of the Apostles begins 12:08 in the New Testament record, the disciples are hovering, 12:13 clustering tremblingly in an upper room. 12:18 The story is actually exciting, 12:20 but most people forget the context, 12:22 they were in that upper room in fear for their lives. 12:26 It was not even possible as far as they understood 12:30 to meet together without some sort of legal action 12:33 perhaps, violence against them. 12:35 It turned out the God's Spirit 12:36 was present there in a very special way. 12:39 That's true today. 12:41 God says that He will be where two or three 12:43 are gathered in His name. 12:45 The great irony is that it's not just in China, 12:48 it's not just in a communist regime, 12:50 but even in the West under certain circumstances 12:55 if we do not play the legal game 12:57 with civil authorities in Liberty, 12:59 the views of the society around us 13:01 we may find that in our upper room it is just as hard, 13:06 just as dangerous to meet and seek the Spirit of the Lord. 13:10 When we're talking about religious liberty 13:12 we need to keep this in mind, 13:13 "Defend the rights of conscience for people to meet, 13:17 to seek the Lord, to share spiritual experiences 13:20 and to do that, no matter what the cost 13:25 because the gain and the potential is so high. 13:28 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17