Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reid
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000188A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program that brings you up-to-date news, views, 00:27 information on religious liberty questions in the United States, 00:30 but also around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:35 And my guest on this program is Melissa Reid, 00:38 who happens to be the Associate Editor for Liberty Magazine 00:41 and also Director of N.A.R.L.A. 00:43 the North American Religious Liberty Association. 00:46 It's a pleasure to be involved here today. 00:47 Thanks for the invitation--yes. 00:49 And it's a pleasure to work with you. 00:50 So this is little continuation of relationship of work 00:55 and I want to bring up something 00:57 that I know you're well aware of. 00:58 It's gonna be featured in an upcoming Liberty Magazine. 01:01 It concerns the question of, is it always legal 01:04 even in the United States to worship in your own home. 01:07 Right and this is an issue 01:08 that we've covered a couple of times in Liberty. Absolutely. 01:12 With some small group, Bible study situations. 01:15 We had--I think it was just this pastoral situation 01:18 in St. Capistrano in California, 01:21 and there was zoning issues as far as parking 01:24 and now they are seeing more recent one in Arizona. 01:27 And that's why I think this one's even more significant, 01:30 because as I remember nearly all of the--of the previous ones 01:34 that I can remember in a couple that we featured. 01:37 They got the people on the technicality, 01:40 if there was not enough public parking. Right. 01:42 To hold such home meetings 01:44 and it was a public nuisance. Right, right. 01:45 So the private event was spilling over into pub-- 01:49 you know, public arena. Right. 01:50 So what's the situation here? 01:52 This is in Arizona right? Right, right. 01:54 So the situation that I've heard is that this gentleman 01:57 is having Bible studies there in his house 02:00 and there at his private residence. 02:02 There is not a parking situation involved, 02:05 there are several and there's been 02:07 no complaints as far as that-- 02:08 Well, it's a fairly big property. It's a fairly-- 02:10 Well, you and I discussed it a bit 02:12 and I've read a number of places that ranges from one 02:15 and half to four acres, but anyway you cut it. Right. 02:17 There's plenty of parking for the size groups 02:21 that regularly met in his home. Right, right. 02:23 But the situation is the local ordinance is seeing this 02:28 or the local jurisdiction is seeing this as a church, 02:33 an organization or and so therefore should be 02:37 following zoning situations like having handicap access 02:41 and things like that, 02:43 sort of seeing this rather as a private residence, 02:46 but more as a business. 02:48 Its--as I've read more on this 02:50 and of course I've read their article which will come out, 02:52 what's that November, December. Right. 02:55 But I've read back on that and to me 02:58 it gets more and morecomplicated, 02:59 because I think the overarching principle 03:02 here is the right of someone with the religious faith 03:05 to meet anywhere in the home of appropriate 03:08 with small group of fellow believers and share. 03:11 Right, right. And discuss. Yeah. 03:13 And that's what going on here, 03:14 but as I look at this, the Rutherford Foundation 03:18 which is lead by Attorney John Whitehead, 03:22 down in Charlottesville, Virginia. 03:25 And they actually wrote the story for us, 03:27 but the Rutherford Foundation 03:28 is defending him partly on the basis 03:30 that this was a close meeting of just friends 03:32 and family for a Bible study, it's not an open, 03:36 anybody can come type event. 03:39 And they're defending in on that basis 03:41 which is reasonable if that's how its to be, 03:43 but I would think that even if it were anybody 03:46 that wants to come and hear, 03:48 they should be allowed in a free country to hear 03:50 if someone expand on their religious faith. Right, right. 03:53 I agree with that and the author John Whitehead had mentioned 03:58 or give the reference likened it too, 04:00 if you would have a temporary party at your house 04:02 or if you had all the boy scouts, 04:04 you know, come over or whatever, 04:05 but it was interesting because the complaints 04:08 that were received from the city all linked it to this 04:11 being a religious event 04:13 and that's what for me as a religious freedom 04:15 advocate really made a troubling. 04:17 I was going to throw in a humorous thing 04:18 and even as though I-- and I will say it, 04:21 but if I even thought of it, I might get some backlash 04:23 but there are many of us that might want to bent top way 04:27 or these networking things in the home. 04:29 Right, yes, yeah. 04:31 But it's true that normally no one would question 04:35 that other than maybe socially rolling their eyes, 04:38 you know, there's another chance to, 04:40 to strong arm you to buy something. 04:42 But yeah, this is just social interaction 04:45 and its amazing to me even though 04:47 I know this has happened before to read here 04:49 how the powers of local government 04:52 can sort of be turned on you to such a level 04:54 that this man is now in prison. 04:55 Yes, and you know, for those viewers who are unaware, 04:59 Arizona and the Phoenix area, 05:01 it's a notorious county jail as far as 05:04 it's out in the middle of the desert in tents. 05:06 Sheriff Arpaio. Yes. Joe Arpaio. Yes. 05:10 He sort of the cowboy hat at vigilante, 05:15 he's going to round up all the illegal 05:17 and they're not just in prison, 05:18 this is a way to make them pray. Yes. 05:21 So its even more agreed just to the man 05:23 who even if you don't agree with it, 05:25 it's a matter of principle to him 05:27 where he's put himself against the local government, 05:29 but now he is impounded there for two months I think. 05:33 Yes, in harsh conditions with people who, you know-- 05:36 This is the hottest summer on record, that's where he is. 05:40 Yeah, yeah. That in a tent. 05:42 So it's obviously a person, 05:44 you know, it is a strong conviction for him 05:46 and again the fact that it's private property 05:49 and that the objections that have been heard are one, 05:54 you know, are on a religious basis, 05:55 I think to me is very troubling. 05:58 Yeah, and I do hope some of our viewers have the chance 06:01 in the next few months to look at Liberty Magazine 06:03 and read some of the details or go online, 06:06 I mean its open information, it's not just in liberty 06:08 but we like to think that 06:10 we corral appropriate material to sort of illustrate 06:13 to the direction of religious liberty 06:15 in the U.S. in this case. 06:17 But you know, the details are very byzantine. 06:21 He is registered as a pastor. Right. 06:24 A minister of religion which gives him 06:26 tax deductibility on his home. 06:28 Right. And-- 06:30 Which is standard practice for any sort of minister-- 06:32 Absolutely. Yeah. 06:34 Because of that some of us detract as a claiming 06:37 that his home was registered as a church, 06:39 but that's not the case, 06:41 its just because since he is a minister, 06:43 the home is seen as the man's. 06:45 Right, and then the other objection was the fact 06:48 that they're taking up offering, 06:49 but it was interestingly, 06:51 the author pointed out in the article 06:53 that none of the money goes to, 06:56 you know, the pastor, 06:57 it's all distributed to charity or some things like that. 06:59 But even if that went to the pastor that most churches, 07:03 Protestant churches in the United States, 07:05 the offering and contribution do go to the pastor. Right. 07:08 He is directly dependent on the amount of that, 07:12 so pastor of a little 07:14 independent churches pay very little 07:16 and the pastor of the big churches paid more. 07:18 To me that's a red herring argument. Right. 07:19 It doesn't seem to be the case here, but-- 07:21 But I think that's how they were trying to illustrate 07:23 that it was a church rather than a home Bible study 07:25 the fact that money was being, 07:27 but again if we go back to the, you know, 07:28 the Hermon and Tabor situation, 07:30 those are money situations there as well 07:32 and we're certainly not looking at those as businesses 07:35 in a private individuals' home. 07:36 And when he was challenged some time ago, 07:39 I think about two years ago on this in the home, 07:42 he then built a shed on the property where they met. 07:47 But he did not register that as a church. 07:50 But it should have passed code as a meeting place, 07:55 but its code they're getting him on then. Right. 07:57 He has to put spring clues, 07:58 he has to put handicap ramps in allover Steven, 08:02 and none of the regular friends who come is handicapped. 08:06 And as I say Rutherford is defending it on the basis 08:08 that it's a close meeting. Right. 08:10 That's probably why, 08:11 because if it was an open public meeting, 08:14 he would be subject to these conditions, 08:16 but even then you've got to really think 08:18 is it ultimately appropriate in a democracy 08:23 where people are trying to express their faith to restrict 08:26 that on these sort of legalities, 08:30 that you have to have this 08:32 and this or else you can't do it. Right. 08:33 We'd like to think that religious faith 08:35 can be expressed anytime. 08:37 Yeah, and I think it's interesting as an American 08:39 to see this happening more and more frequently. 08:42 We've heard of this overseas happening may be in Asia 08:44 and China or some one like that, 08:46 you know, people having 08:48 small group Bible studies there in their home, 08:50 their only place that they're allow to have it 08:51 and then being charged because, 08:54 you know, its improper gathering of people, 08:57 they have these, you know, these laws against 08:59 and so its interesting to see it in our own backyard. 09:02 Well, you brought up the connection 09:04 that got my interest on this from the beginning. 09:06 In Liberty Magazine 09:08 we've run at least two articles 09:10 on religious freedom in China and lot of that centers 09:13 around this issue of the home churches. Right. 09:16 And I know the Seventh-day Adventist church is well aware 09:19 that that's where our growth is taking place. 09:20 The three self movement which self determination, 09:24 so something whatever, 09:26 but it's a government control religious structure 09:28 where they assign worship places and so on 09:32 and even the minister to preach on a given Sabbath. 09:34 You know, that's okay, 09:36 but the real action happens outside that 09:38 and from the Chinese government 09:39 perspective it's absolutely illegal. Right, right. 09:43 So we defend the rights of those people in that context, 09:46 but they've been got out exactly 09:48 the same ways as this man in Arizona. 09:49 Here on our democratic society. 09:51 Legal technicalities and in both cases 09:53 and there's a great irony on this, 09:55 the communist don't say they're against religion. 10:00 This is a misinformation 10:02 that going back deep into the Cold War, 10:04 we were told that there's no religious freedom 10:06 in communist countries 10:08 practically speaking very little. 10:10 But in the communist constitutions, 10:12 they always guaranteed the right of religious freedom. 10:15 It's just that against the other rights 10:16 and obligations of the communist party 10:18 and of the people's will in that, 10:20 it came out a poor second then they would legislate you 10:24 or put these petty rules just marginalize you in society 10:29 and the hope was and still is in communist China 10:32 that it will disappear if you make it hard to be a Christian 10:35 or a person of religious faith. 10:36 Right and I think well, that's the same situation 10:38 that we're looking at in Muslim countries as well. 10:42 You know, so-- But it may be the same 10:44 in the United States. Right. 10:46 As President Obama said correctly, 10:50 but it troubled some people, 10:51 this is not a--United States is not a Christian nation 10:53 in a structural legal sense even though 10:57 the society is overwhelmingly Christian. 10:59 But some people are running with that I think 11:01 and I would like to sort of remove all 11:04 Christian sentiment from the public forum. Right, right. 11:07 So do you think that we're moving to a time 11:09 when you're going to have to register your local Bible study 11:13 that's happening in your own home. 11:15 I do. You feel like that's going to? 11:16 I felt if for a long time 11:18 and I'm trying to think of the Professor Esbeck, 11:25 is the name that comes to mind. 11:26 He was one of the lead people in the Bush administration 11:29 for the faith based initiative. 11:31 As I remember, he was the lead person 11:34 in the justice department. Okay. 11:36 And shortly after that whole structure was established, 11:39 he came and met with some of our church leaders 11:41 and I put it to him. I said with this faith based initiative 11:44 where the government is funneling 11:46 billions of dollars of formally 11:48 welfare or plod money through the churches. 11:51 It's just necessary that you determine which 11:54 and what churches are appropriate 11:56 to send that money though. 11:58 Once you have a list of acceptable churches 12:00 and unacceptable, that will filter through 12:03 in all sorts of church activity. Right. 12:04 And I think we're heading toward 12:06 what liberty as you know is often written about 12:09 because it was in France most recently 12:11 where there's list of appropriate churches 12:14 that a government sanctions and one sanctioned 12:17 and one's that aren't and the one's that aren't, 12:19 then these petty legalities 12:21 will work against them to drive them out of existence. 12:22 Right, right, we've seen 12:23 that in Hungary just recently as well. Absolutely. 12:26 We're coming up pretty close to a break 12:28 and so let's take a break now. 12:30 Please come back and we'll continue this discussion, 12:32 very interesting one about 12:34 restrictions on religious liberty 12:36 even in the United States, the land of freedom. |
Revised 2014-12-17