Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that brings
you up-to-date news, views,
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information on religious liberty
questions in the United States,
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but also around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Melissa Reid,
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who happens to be the Associate
Editor for Liberty Magazine
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and also Director of N.A.R.L.A.
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the North American
Religious Liberty Association.
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It's a pleasure to
be involved here today.
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Thanks for the invitation--yes.
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And it's a
pleasure to work with you.
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So this is little continuation
of relationship of work
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and I want to bring up something
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that I know
you're well aware of.
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It's gonna be featured in
an upcoming Liberty Magazine.
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It concerns the
question of, is it always legal
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even in the United States
to worship in your own home.
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Right and this is an issue
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that we've covered a couple
of times in Liberty. Absolutely.
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With some small group,
Bible study situations.
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We had--I think it was
just this pastoral situation
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in St. Capistrano in California,
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and there was zoning
issues as far as parking
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and now they are seeing
more recent one in Arizona.
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And that's why I think this
one's even more significant,
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because as I remember nearly
all of the--of the previous ones
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that I can remember in
a couple that we featured.
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They got the people
on the technicality,
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if there was not
enough public parking. Right.
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To hold such home meetings
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and it was a public
nuisance. Right, right.
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So the private event
was spilling over into pub--
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you know, public arena. Right.
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So what's the situation here?
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This is in Arizona
right? Right, right.
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So the situation that I've
heard is that this gentleman
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is having Bible
studies there in his house
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and there at his
private residence.
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There is not a
parking situation involved,
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there are
several and there's been
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no complaints as far as that--
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Well, it's a fairly big
property. It's a fairly--
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Well, you and I
discussed it a bit
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and I've read a number of
places that ranges from one
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and half to four acres,
but anyway you cut it. Right.
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There's plenty of
parking for the size groups
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that regularly met in
his home. Right, right.
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But the situation is the
local ordinance is seeing this
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or the local jurisdiction
is seeing this as a church,
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an organization or
and so therefore should be
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following zoning situations
like having handicap access
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and things like that,
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sort of seeing this
rather as a private residence,
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but more as a business.
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Its--as I've read more on this
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and of course I've read their
article which will come out,
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what's that
November, December. Right.
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But I've read
back on that and to me
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it gets more
and morecomplicated,
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because I think the
overarching principle
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here is the right of
someone with the religious faith
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to meet anywhere in
the home of appropriate
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with small group of
fellow believers and share.
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Right, right. And discuss. Yeah.
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And that's what going on here,
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but as I look at this,
the Rutherford Foundation
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which is lead by
Attorney John Whitehead,
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down in
Charlottesville, Virginia.
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And they actually
wrote the story for us,
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but the Rutherford Foundation
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is defending him
partly on the basis
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that this was a close
meeting of just friends
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and family for a Bible
study, it's not an open,
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anybody can come type event.
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And they're
defending in on that basis
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which is reasonable
if that's how its to be,
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but I would think that
even if it were anybody
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that wants to come and hear,
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they should be allowed
in a free country to hear
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if someone expand on their
religious faith. Right, right.
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I agree with that and the author
John Whitehead had mentioned
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or give the
reference likened it too,
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if you would have a
temporary party at your house
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or if you had
all the boy scouts,
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you know, come over or whatever,
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but it was interesting
because the complaints
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that were received from
the city all linked it to this
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being a religious event
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and that's what for
me as a religious freedom
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advocate really
made a troubling.
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I was going to
throw in a humorous thing
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and even as though
I-- and I will say it,
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but if I even thought of
it, I might get some backlash
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but there are many of us
that might want to bent top way
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or these
networking things in the home.
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Right, yes, yeah.
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But it's true that
normally no one would question
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that other than maybe
socially rolling their eyes,
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you know, there's
another chance to,
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to strong arm
you to buy something.
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But yeah, this is
just social interaction
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and its amazing
to me even though
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I know this has
happened before to read here
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how the powers
of local government
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can sort of be turned
on you to such a level
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that this man is now in prison.
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Yes, and you know, for
those viewers who are unaware,
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Arizona and the Phoenix area,
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it's a notorious
county jail as far as
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it's out in the middle
of the desert in tents.
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Sheriff Arpaio.
Yes. Joe Arpaio. Yes.
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He sort of the
cowboy hat at vigilante,
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he's going to
round up all the illegal
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and they're not just in prison,
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this is a way to
make them pray. Yes.
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So its even more
agreed just to the man
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who even if you
don't agree with it,
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it's a matter
of principle to him
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where he's put himself
against the local government,
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but now he is impounded
there for two months I think.
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Yes, in harsh conditions
with people who, you know--
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This is the hottest summer
on record, that's where he is.
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Yeah, yeah. That in a tent.
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So it's obviously a person,
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you know, it is a
strong conviction for him
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and again the fact
that it's private property
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and that the objections
that have been heard are one,
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you know, are on
a religious basis,
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I think to me is very troubling.
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Yeah, and I do hope some
of our viewers have the chance
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in the next few months
to look at Liberty Magazine
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and read some of the
details or go online,
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I mean its open information,
it's not just in liberty
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but we like to think that
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we corral appropriate
material to sort of illustrate
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to the direction
of religious liberty
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in the U.S. in this case.
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But you know, the
details are very byzantine.
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He is registered
as a pastor. Right.
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A minister of
religion which gives him
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tax deductibility on his home.
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Right. And--
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Which is standard practice
for any sort of minister--
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Absolutely. Yeah.
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Because of that some of
us detract as a claiming
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that his home was
registered as a church,
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but that's not the case,
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its just because
since he is a minister,
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the home is seen as the man's.
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Right, and then the
other objection was the fact
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that they're taking up offering,
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but it was interestingly,
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the author
pointed out in the article
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that none of the money goes to,
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you know, the pastor,
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it's all distributed to charity
or some things like that.
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But even if that went to
the pastor that most churches,
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Protestant churches
in the United States,
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the offering and contribution
do go to the pastor. Right.
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He is directly
dependent on the amount of that,
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so pastor of a little
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independent
churches pay very little
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and the pastor of the
big churches paid more.
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To me that's a red
herring argument. Right.
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It doesn't seem to
be the case here, but--
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But I think that's how
they were trying to illustrate
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that it was a church
rather than a home Bible study
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the fact that money was being,
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but again if we go
back to the, you know,
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the Hermon and Tabor situation,
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those are money
situations there as well
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and we're certainly not
looking at those as businesses
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in a private individuals' home.
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And when he was
challenged some time ago,
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I think about two years
ago on this in the home,
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he then built a shed on
the property where they met.
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But he did not
register that as a church.
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But it should have
passed code as a meeting place,
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but its code they're
getting him on then. Right.
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He has to put spring clues,
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he has to put handicap
ramps in allover Steven,
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and none of the regular
friends who come is handicapped.
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And as I say Rutherford
is defending it on the basis
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that it's a
close meeting. Right.
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That's probably why,
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because if it was
an open public meeting,
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he would be subject
to these conditions,
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but even then
you've got to really think
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is it ultimately
appropriate in a democracy
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where people are trying to
express their faith to restrict
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that on these
sort of legalities,
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that you have to have this
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and this or else
you can't do it. Right.
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We'd like to think
that religious faith
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can be expressed anytime.
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Yeah, and I think it's
interesting as an American
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to see this happening
more and more frequently.
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We've heard of this overseas
happening may be in Asia
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and China or some one like that,
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you know, people having
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small group Bible
studies there in their home,
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their only place that
they're allow to have it
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and then being charged because,
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you know, its
improper gathering of people,
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they have these, you
know, these laws against
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and so its interesting to
see it in our own backyard.
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Well, you
brought up the connection
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that got my interest on
this from the beginning.
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In Liberty Magazine
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we've run at least two articles
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on religious freedom in
China and lot of that centers
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around this issue of
the home churches. Right.
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And I know the Seventh-day
Adventist church is well aware
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that that's where our
growth is taking place.
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The three self movement
which self determination,
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so something whatever,
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but it's a government
control religious structure
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where they assign
worship places and so on
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and even the minister to
preach on a given Sabbath.
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You know, that's okay,
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but the real action
happens outside that
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and from the Chinese government
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perspective it's absolutely
illegal. Right, right.
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So we defend the rights of
those people in that context,
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but they've been got out exactly
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the same ways as
this man in Arizona.
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Here on our democratic society.
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Legal
technicalities and in both cases
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and there's a
great irony on this,
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the communist don't say
they're against religion.
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This is a misinformation
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that going back
deep into the Cold War,
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we were told that
there's no religious freedom
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in communist countries
00:10:06.14\00:10:08.02
practically
speaking very little.
00:10:08.05\00:10:09.98
But in the
communist constitutions,
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they always guaranteed the
right of religious freedom.
00:10:12.19\00:10:14.99
It's just that
against the other rights
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and obligations of
the communist party
00:10:16.72\00:10:18.50
and of the
people's will in that,
00:10:18.53\00:10:20.21
it came out a poor second
then they would legislate you
00:10:20.24\00:10:24.51
or put these petty rules
just marginalize you in society
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and the hope was and
still is in communist China
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that it will disappear if you
make it hard to be a Christian
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or a person of religious faith.
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Right and I think well,
that's the same situation
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that we're looking at in
Muslim countries as well.
00:10:38.12\00:10:42.25
You know, so--
But it may be the same
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in the United States. Right.
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As President
Obama said correctly,
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but it troubled some people,
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this is not a--United
States is not a Christian nation
00:10:51.51\00:10:53.86
in a structural
legal sense even though
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the society is
overwhelmingly Christian.
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But some people are
running with that I think
00:10:59.49\00:11:01.42
and I would like
to sort of remove all
00:11:01.45\00:11:04.68
Christian sentiment from
the public forum. Right, right.
00:11:04.71\00:11:07.78
So do you think that
we're moving to a time
00:11:07.81\00:11:09.58
when you're going to have to
register your local Bible study
00:11:09.61\00:11:13.93
that's happening
in your own home.
00:11:13.96\00:11:15.33
I do. You feel
like that's going to?
00:11:15.36\00:11:16.73
I felt if for a long time
00:11:16.76\00:11:18.42
and I'm trying to think
of the Professor Esbeck,
00:11:18.45\00:11:25.25
is the name that comes to mind.
00:11:25.28\00:11:26.89
He was one of the lead people
in the Bush administration
00:11:26.92\00:11:29.67
for the faith based initiative.
00:11:29.70\00:11:31.07
As I remember, he
was the lead person
00:11:31.10\00:11:34.57
in the justice department. Okay.
00:11:34.60\00:11:36.39
And shortly after that
whole structure was established,
00:11:36.42\00:11:39.73
he came and met with
some of our church leaders
00:11:39.76\00:11:41.81
and I put it to him. I said
with this faith based initiative
00:11:41.84\00:11:44.75
where the
government is funneling
00:11:44.78\00:11:46.68
billions of dollars of formally
00:11:46.71\00:11:48.57
welfare or plod
money through the churches.
00:11:48.60\00:11:51.32
It's just necessary
that you determine which
00:11:51.35\00:11:54.56
and what
churches are appropriate
00:11:54.59\00:11:56.92
to send that money though.
00:11:56.95\00:11:58.32
Once you have a list
of acceptable churches
00:11:58.35\00:12:00.92
and unacceptable,
that will filter through
00:12:00.95\00:12:03.04
in all sorts of
church activity. Right.
00:12:03.07\00:12:04.86
And I think we're heading toward
00:12:04.89\00:12:06.26
what liberty as you
know is often written about
00:12:06.29\00:12:09.32
because it was in
France most recently
00:12:09.35\00:12:11.03
where there's list
of appropriate churches
00:12:11.06\00:12:14.06
that a government
sanctions and one sanctioned
00:12:14.09\00:12:17.23
and one's that aren't
and the one's that aren't,
00:12:17.26\00:12:19.40
then these petty legalities
00:12:19.43\00:12:20.99
will work against them to
drive them out of existence.
00:12:21.02\00:12:22.46
Right, right, we've seen
00:12:22.49\00:12:23.86
that in Hungary just
recently as well. Absolutely.
00:12:23.89\00:12:26.20
We're coming up
pretty close to a break
00:12:26.23\00:12:28.11
and so let's take a break now.
00:12:28.14\00:12:30.03
Please come back and
we'll continue this discussion,
00:12:30.06\00:12:32.57
very interesting one about
00:12:32.60\00:12:34.21
restrictions on
religious liberty
00:12:34.24\00:12:35.97
even in the United
States, the land of freedom.
00:12:36.00\00:12:38.38