Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000187B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break, with guest Dr. John Graz, 00:11 we were solving the world's problems 00:13 as far as religious liberty goes. 00:15 But--and there are many, many problems. 00:17 You were giving some examples-- 00:18 Problem, challenges, and opportunities. 00:21 Absolutely, so as you look at the world 00:24 and the events that are bearing down on us, 00:27 do you see much hope for religious liberty 00:30 or is it changing for the best? What's the dynamic? 00:33 I think there are always some hope, you know? 00:36 There are some hope in the country 00:38 and there are some bad news in some other countries. 00:40 It means it doesn't-- 00:42 it's not really very rigid in some ways 00:46 that you can hope that the situation 00:48 will improve in some countries. 00:50 We can hope that, maybe, 00:52 things will become better in China, in Vietnam, 00:56 but now when it comes to Middle East 00:59 that's more difficult to have really a hope. 01:02 What we could hope is, you know, maybe, 01:05 people will be free to go to church and protected, 01:10 specially protected but there are 01:12 lot of challenges-- Lot of challenges-- 01:14 Just a lot of challenges-- And seems to me 01:16 that the spirit of revolution that's sweeping the Middle East 01:19 and some other areas on a smaller scale 01:22 that you can't separate religious threat 01:24 from that because there's a dynamic 01:27 where as the political situation explodes 01:30 then some religions are seen as a sort of a proxy 01:33 for a political party and people are victimized, 01:36 churches are burnt. Yes. 01:37 And, you know, in some of these countries religious leaders 01:42 or what we call, maybe, a fundamentalist 01:44 or extremist were persecuted 01:46 by the previous government of leader or dictators. 01:50 And, of course, now they want to take their revenge 01:53 and they're well organized. Yeah. 01:55 And the project they have for their countries 01:57 are not really a democratic and liberal country. 02:00 They want to impose their religion. 02:03 They have an agenda and it's very clear 02:06 there is not a space for those who don't agree with them. 02:11 And it's stronger than it could have been in the past 02:14 or it was in the past because it's a religious. 02:17 It means you have behind the idea of, 02:19 we have the truth and as long as you don't obey to the truth 02:24 the country will not be blessed. Yeah. 02:26 If you want to live in a blessed country from God 02:30 you should not accept dissidence, 02:34 heretics of people who disagree with the truth. 02:37 I mean that's very strong. 02:39 And it seems to me that more and more 02:41 when there's a civil disturbance in a country 02:44 they then start to identify different minorities 02:48 as representatives of outside powers 02:50 that they find severely threatening. 02:52 It's very easy to become paranoiac, you know? 02:55 Well, and sometimes the paranoia 02:56 based on a small bit effect. Yeah. 02:59 Which is to me more evidence that a Christian, 03:03 since we're talking from a Christian perspective, 03:04 a Christian should stay out of the civil affairs. 03:08 As the early Christian church was concerned about 03:11 saving souls and witnessing 03:13 and practicing the Christian life 03:15 but not get entangled with the state-- 03:18 You know, we can understand 03:19 that if you are a member of religious group. 03:21 The religious group have the right to say, sorry, 03:24 but you don't follow the rules. 03:26 Sorry, but you don't share anymore of our creeds. 03:30 It means you are this fellowship, 03:33 we don't want you here. 03:34 They have the right to do that 03:36 but when the same way of thinking 03:39 become the national way of thinking 03:41 and you use the power of the state-- 03:43 And then there are penalties-- 03:44 And penalties and put people in jail as we took-- 03:48 as example what happened in Pakistan 03:50 and some other countries. 03:52 We cannot accept that. 03:53 That's really opposed to the human being, 03:57 to the dignity of human being. 03:59 And of course, you know, some people may thought that, 04:01 may think that, is it really necessary? 04:04 Is it worth to continue to preach the gospel 04:09 when you know that so many people 04:11 who will have problem around the world? 04:13 They will be persecuted. They will loose everything. 04:17 Do we have to do that? 04:19 Do we have a responsibility? That's a big question. 04:23 When you mention the gospel 04:24 and maybe this is time for another diversion 04:27 but get back to the central point. 04:29 When we're talking about religious liberty 04:31 for a Christian, it's not a civil contract, 04:33 it's not a just a civil principal. 04:37 We're in this because we believe in the gospel. 04:39 We follow Jesus Christ. 04:41 We want to exemplify what He told us to do. 04:46 And we need to show charity to other people. 04:48 We need to act redemptively toward them. 04:51 And all of this are, perhaps, best within 04:53 a true model of religious liberty. 04:57 But what do we get from the Bible? 04:58 What are we told to do? 05:01 What are our marching orders 05:02 as we practice our faith in any country? 05:06 Yeah, we have to practice our faith 05:07 and to live it and to share it. 05:09 That is the order of Jesus, you know? 05:11 Go and you preach but Jesus has never said force people. 05:15 No. Or take over. 05:17 You know take in charge of the government 05:19 and use the power of the state 05:21 to force people to become Christian. 05:22 Like he was at pains to point out 05:24 that you do with Caesar's currency 05:26 and that's his business. 05:27 You know, it's not the currency of heaven. 05:29 He was at pains to tell Pilate, 05:33 "My Kingdom is not of this world 05:35 otherwise my followers would fight." You're right. 05:37 Jesus--something that I've hardly ever heard mentioned 05:40 but when he sent his followers out to witness 05:43 to the Samaritans or any other non Jewish area 05:47 they were told to say their peace 05:49 and if they reject it, shake off the dust and go their way. 05:51 Not to try to challenge the status quo. 05:54 And also Jesus says, you will be-- 05:55 He said, you will be persecuted. Absolutely. 05:57 And He say, love your enemies. Yeah. 05:59 And Apostle Paul said, 06:00 don't try to take revenge yourself. 06:03 Let revenge in the hand of God. 06:06 It means it's very clear for the church 06:08 at the beginning of the history 06:10 of the Christian church, you know? 06:12 They were not called to takeover, to make an alliance 06:17 between churches or between religion and the state. 06:20 That was totally different. 06:22 The state has, you know, its own job 06:26 and the church has its mission-- 06:28 had its mission which make things very clear. 06:31 Now, you know, is it really worth to preach the gospel, 06:35 to ask people to change the religion. 06:37 I think that it's a good test, you know? 06:39 If we believe in a human dignity we cannot say, oh, yes, 06:44 we believe in a human dignity 06:45 but just in the U.S. or just in Europe. Right. Why? 06:49 Do you think that people living in other part of the world 06:51 are not human and they don't deserve human dignity 06:55 even if their government or their authorities, 06:59 you know, don't recognize their human dignity? 07:02 We recognize it and we want to give them the possibilities. 07:05 There's the run though 07:07 and this is where Christian America has-- 07:09 I am using that in quotes-- has a problem. 07:12 They look and see another country 07:14 where these rights and, particularly, 07:16 a religious right is denied. 07:18 Well, and therefore onward Christian soldiers will send 07:21 the expeditionary force over there 07:23 to make them give liberty. 07:25 I am not sure a Christian is called to act that way. 07:28 No, you know-- We have to intercede in prayer. 07:30 We're to stand up as pulled it on occasion 07:34 before the authorities and give a reason for our faith. 07:36 You know, during the three centuries 07:39 where Christian were persecuted, 07:41 there were enough to organize 07:42 a kind of army or for-- to have rebellion. 07:47 You know, in some part of the Roman Empire 07:50 there were 50, 60 person. 07:51 They could have create, you know, a strong opposition. 07:56 They could have used weapon. 07:58 They had soldiers among them. They never did that. 08:01 They were persecuted from the beginning to the end 08:04 until they become allied with the government. 08:07 It means for them it was clear 08:09 that's not of the job of the church, 08:10 of the Christian to be involved in fighting 08:14 in such a way to take over the authorities. 08:18 I know that it could be difficult to understand. 08:20 It's a constant tension even today. It's a tension. 08:22 And even some of what we do with religious liberty 08:25 where if necessity, we're interacting with governments, 08:28 we're even speaking up on certain laws. 08:32 And there's a fine line, it seems to me, 08:33 between doing all of that correctly 08:35 and then doing what some of the Christian right 08:38 for one of the better designator have done 08:40 with a organized form of voting. 08:42 They've voter records and they put candidates in there 08:46 with a conscious aim to turn 08:48 public policy in their direction. 08:50 I think that's-- it's not necessarily evil 08:53 but it's using the voice of the world 08:54 instead of the voice of God. 08:56 You know, we can understand that civil authority 08:58 can follow this strategy or another strategy. 09:01 I can understand that a government 09:03 has to protect its citizen and so on, yes. 09:06 But when it comes 09:08 to the religious people and Christian, 09:10 you know, the power we have is a power of love. 09:14 It's a power of our own conviction. 09:17 It means when we say that we have to use a weapon 09:20 against the other we underestimate 09:22 the power of love 09:24 and we underestimate the power of God. 09:26 The weapons of the Spirit. 09:27 The weapon of the Spirit and the power of God, you know? 09:30 God will help. God will protect. 09:33 And don't believe that every thing is in your hand. 09:37 And we have to believe more in God 09:40 and to put our life in His hand. 09:43 So as we look at this world-- 09:45 we get it--we're running out of time, 09:47 but I know you and I and other Seventh Day Adventist 09:51 share a common prophetic world view. 09:53 And we realize that we're in the last days. 09:56 Do we see God's purpose is being worked out? 10:00 And it's possible that sometimes we see 10:03 more evidence of Satan frustrating God's will. 10:07 You know, that's true, Lincoln. 10:09 You know, who is the prince of this world? 10:12 Exactly, because some people say, 10:14 oh, its God's will. God wants this. 10:15 I don't think so. 10:16 Much of what I see in this world 10:18 is evidence of the prince of this world at work, 10:20 not of God. Yeah, absolutely. 10:21 We're on the battlefield. 10:23 And we're on the side of the winner 10:25 but still the battle is still going on. 10:28 And we know that the winner is Jesus at the end. 10:31 But still the battle is here. 10:33 But many battles, the classic battles of the ancient days, 10:37 you know, massive armies, 10:39 two or three hundred thousand on each side 10:41 and you couldn't tell-- in fact, sometimes it appeared 10:44 the battle was going the other direction. 10:46 Some pivotal event happened and it was a total wreck. 10:49 And so I think we have to trust that in some way, 10:54 at the last moment, I think God's gonna show himself. 10:57 Not necessarily solve it all 10:58 because the solution is another world. Yeah. 11:01 But there has to be a manifest sign of God's favor 11:05 on the persecuted few, I think. Yeah. 11:07 And we're still looking for that by and large 11:09 because many people-- not all die 11:12 but many people--some die, many people lose their jobs, 11:15 socially disadvantaged for their faith 11:17 and we can't solve all of that. 11:18 And there's not clear evidence 11:20 that God intervenes directly. Yeah. 11:22 I think a Christian and a person of faith to some point 11:26 just has to stick with their faith 11:27 and take the consequences. Yeah. 11:29 This is what we have to do. 11:30 We have to believe that 11:32 religious freedom is a gift from God. 11:34 And also we have to think about those who are persecuted. 11:37 You know, we are living in a world 11:39 where everyday people are loosing their job, 11:41 people are arrested, put in jail. 11:44 We see that more and more churches are burned. 11:46 Christian and other, you know, are burned too or killed. 11:50 We want--we don't want to accept that. 11:54 For us, it's just the opposite of what we believe. 11:57 And this is why we have to think 11:59 and to pray for those who are persecuted 12:01 and also to help them. 12:05 Years ago I remember being quite captivated 12:07 by an ongoing television series called the World at War. 12:12 It was characterized by an introductory sequence 12:14 where there were flames licking up around the title 12:18 to illustrate the destruction 12:19 that came upon the world in World War II. 12:23 But, you know, in a very real way 12:25 when we talk religious liberty and religion 12:28 and the end of the world, we are talking about 12:30 a world at war against God's ways. 12:33 In Milton's Paradise Lost. 12:35 He has Satan declare war, continual war against heaven 12:40 and that's really what I see. 12:43 But I am encouraged to remember the words of Jesus 12:46 when he said, "In this world you will have trouble 12:50 but have no fear or fear not 12:52 because I've overcome the world." 12:55 It's our challenge when we stand up for religious freedom 12:59 to tackle all the powers and principalities 13:02 that are dedicated toward 13:04 diminishing religious freedom, thwarting faith. 13:07 But it's our privilege to remember too 13:10 that the end is sure, that religious liberty, 13:14 God's way will win at one day and one day soon. 13:20 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17