Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break,
with guest Dr. John Graz,
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we were solving
the world's problems
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as far as
religious liberty goes.
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But--and there are
many, many problems.
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You were giving some examples--
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Problem,
challenges, and opportunities.
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Absolutely, so as
you look at the world
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and the events that
are bearing down on us,
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do you see much hope
for religious liberty
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or is it changing for
the best? What's the dynamic?
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I think there are
always some hope, you know?
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There are some
hope in the country
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and there are some bad
news in some other countries.
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It means it doesn't--
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it's not really
very rigid in some ways
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that you can hope
that the situation
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will improve in some countries.
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We can hope that, maybe,
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things will become
better in China, in Vietnam,
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but now when it
comes to Middle East
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that's more difficult
to have really a hope.
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What we could hope
is, you know, maybe,
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people will be free to
go to church and protected,
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specially
protected but there are
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lot of
challenges-- Lot of challenges--
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Just a lot of
challenges-- And seems to me
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that the spirit of revolution
that's sweeping the Middle East
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and some other
areas on a smaller scale
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that you can't
separate religious threat
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from that
because there's a dynamic
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where as the
political situation explodes
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then some religions are
seen as a sort of a proxy
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for a political party
and people are victimized,
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churches are burnt. Yes.
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And, you know, in some of these
countries religious leaders
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or what we call,
maybe, a fundamentalist
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or extremist were persecuted
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by the previous government
of leader or dictators.
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And, of course, now they
want to take their revenge
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and they're
well organized. Yeah.
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And the project they
have for their countries
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are not really a
democratic and liberal country.
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They want to
impose their religion.
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They have an
agenda and it's very clear
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there is not a space for
those who don't agree with them.
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And it's stronger than it
could have been in the past
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or it was in the past
because it's a religious.
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It means you have
behind the idea of,
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we have the truth and as long
as you don't obey to the truth
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the country will
not be blessed. Yeah.
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If you want to live in
a blessed country from God
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you should not
accept dissidence,
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heretics of people who
disagree with the truth.
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I mean that's very strong.
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And it seems to
me that more and more
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when there's a civil
disturbance in a country
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they then start to
identify different minorities
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as representatives
of outside powers
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that they find
severely threatening.
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It's very easy to
become paranoiac, you know?
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Well, and sometimes the paranoia
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based on a small
bit effect. Yeah.
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Which is to me more
evidence that a Christian,
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since we're talking
from a Christian perspective,
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a Christian should stay
out of the civil affairs.
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As the early Christian
church was concerned about
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saving souls and witnessing
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and practicing
the Christian life
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but not get
entangled with the state--
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You know, we can understand
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that if you are a
member of religious group.
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The religious group
have the right to say, sorry,
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but you don't follow the rules.
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Sorry, but you don't
share anymore of our creeds.
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It means you
are this fellowship,
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we don't want you here.
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They have the right to do that
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but when the
same way of thinking
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become the
national way of thinking
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and you use the
power of the state--
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And then there are penalties--
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And penalties and put
people in jail as we took--
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as example what
happened in Pakistan
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and some other countries.
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We cannot accept that.
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That's really
opposed to the human being,
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to the dignity of human being.
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And of course, you know,
some people may thought that,
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may think that, is
it really necessary?
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Is it worth to
continue to preach the gospel
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when you know
that so many people
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who will have
problem around the world?
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They will be persecuted.
They will loose everything.
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Do we have to do that?
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Do we have a responsibility?
That's a big question.
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When you mention the gospel
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and maybe this is
time for another diversion
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but get back to
the central point.
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When we're talking
about religious liberty
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for a Christian,
it's not a civil contract,
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it's not a just
a civil principal.
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We're in this because
we believe in the gospel.
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We follow Jesus Christ.
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We want to exemplify
what He told us to do.
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And we need to show
charity to other people.
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We need to act
redemptively toward them.
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And all of this
are, perhaps, best within
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a true model of
religious liberty.
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But what do we
get from the Bible?
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What are we told to do?
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What are our marching orders
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as we practice our
faith in any country?
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Yeah, we have to
practice our faith
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and to live it and to share it.
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That is the order
of Jesus, you know?
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Go and you preach but Jesus
has never said force people.
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No. Or take over.
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You know take in
charge of the government
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and use the power of the state
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to force people
to become Christian.
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Like he was at
pains to point out
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that you do with
Caesar's currency
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and that's his business.
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You know, it's not
the currency of heaven.
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He was at pains to tell Pilate,
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"My Kingdom is not of this world
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otherwise my followers
would fight." You're right.
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Jesus--something that I've
hardly ever heard mentioned
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but when he sent his
followers out to witness
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to the Samaritans or
any other non Jewish area
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they were told
to say their peace
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and if they reject it, shake
off the dust and go their way.
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Not to try to
challenge the status quo.
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And also Jesus
says, you will be--
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He said, you will be
persecuted. Absolutely.
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And He say, love
your enemies. Yeah.
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And Apostle Paul said,
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don't try to
take revenge yourself.
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Let revenge in the hand of God.
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It means it's very
clear for the church
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at the beginning of the history
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of the Christian
church, you know?
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They were not called to
takeover, to make an alliance
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between churches or
between religion and the state.
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That was totally different.
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The state has,
you know, its own job
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and the church has its mission--
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had its mission which
make things very clear.
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Now, you know, is it really
worth to preach the gospel,
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to ask people to
change the religion.
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I think that it's a
good test, you know?
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If we believe in a human
dignity we cannot say, oh, yes,
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we believe in a human dignity
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but just in the U.S. or
just in Europe. Right. Why?
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Do you think that people living
in other part of the world
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are not human and they
don't deserve human dignity
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even if their
government or their authorities,
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you know, don't
recognize their human dignity?
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We recognize it and we want
to give them the possibilities.
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There's the run though
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and this is where
Christian America has--
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I am using that in
quotes-- has a problem.
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They look and
see another country
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where these
rights and, particularly,
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a religious right is denied.
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Well, and therefore onward
Christian soldiers will send
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the
expeditionary force over there
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to make them give liberty.
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I am not sure a Christian
is called to act that way.
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No, you know-- We have
to intercede in prayer.
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We're to stand up as
pulled it on occasion
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before the authorities and
give a reason for our faith.
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You know, during
the three centuries
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where Christian were persecuted,
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there were enough to organize
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a kind of army or
for-- to have rebellion.
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You know, in some
part of the Roman Empire
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there were 50, 60 person.
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They could have create,
you know, a strong opposition.
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They could have used weapon.
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They had soldiers among
them. They never did that.
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They were persecuted
from the beginning to the end
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until they become
allied with the government.
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It means for them it was clear
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that's not of the
job of the church,
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of the Christian to
be involved in fighting
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in such a way to
take over the authorities.
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I know that it could be
difficult to understand.
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It's a constant tension
even today. It's a tension.
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And even some of what we
do with religious liberty
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where if necessity, we're
interacting with governments,
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we're even
speaking up on certain laws.
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And there's a fine
line, it seems to me,
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between doing
all of that correctly
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and then doing what
some of the Christian right
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for one of the
better designator have done
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with a organized form of voting.
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They've voter records and
they put candidates in there
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with a conscious aim to turn
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public policy
in their direction.
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I think that's--
it's not necessarily evil
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but it's using
the voice of the world
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instead of the voice of God.
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You know, we can
understand that civil authority
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can follow this
strategy or another strategy.
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I can understand
that a government
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has to protect its
citizen and so on, yes.
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But when it comes
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to the religious
people and Christian,
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you know, the power we
have is a power of love.
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It's a power of
our own conviction.
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It means when we say
that we have to use a weapon
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against the
other we underestimate
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the power of love
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and we
underestimate the power of God.
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The weapons of the Spirit.
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The weapon of the Spirit
and the power of God, you know?
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God will help. God will protect.
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And don't believe that
every thing is in your hand.
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And we have to
believe more in God
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and to put our life in His hand.
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So as we look at this world--
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we get it--we're
running out of time,
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but I know you and I and
other Seventh Day Adventist
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share a common
prophetic world view.
00:09:51.18\00:09:53.79
And we realize that
we're in the last days.
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Do we see God's
purpose is being worked out?
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And it's possible
that sometimes we see
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more evidence of Satan
frustrating God's will.
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You know, that's true, Lincoln.
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You know, who is the
prince of this world?
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Exactly,
because some people say,
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oh, its God's
will. God wants this.
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I don't think so.
00:10:15.46\00:10:16.83
Much of what I see in this world
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is evidence of the
prince of this world at work,
00:10:18.26\00:10:19.97
not of God. Yeah, absolutely.
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We're on the battlefield.
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And we're on the
side of the winner
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but still the
battle is still going on.
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And we know that the
winner is Jesus at the end.
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But still the battle is here.
00:10:31.38\00:10:33.41
But many battles, the classic
battles of the ancient days,
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you know, massive armies,
00:10:37.74\00:10:39.26
two or three hundred
thousand on each side
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and you couldn't tell-- in
fact, sometimes it appeared
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the battle was
going the other direction.
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Some pivotal event happened
and it was a total wreck.
00:10:46.32\00:10:49.48
And so I think we have
to trust that in some way,
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at the last moment, I
think God's gonna show himself.
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Not necessarily solve it all
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because the solution
is another world. Yeah.
00:10:58.89\00:11:01.01
But there has to be a
manifest sign of God's favor
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on the persecuted
few, I think. Yeah.
00:11:05.06\00:11:07.17
And we're still
looking for that by and large
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because many
people-- not all die
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but many people--some die,
many people lose their jobs,
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socially
disadvantaged for their faith
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and we can't solve all of that.
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And there's not clear evidence
00:11:18.96\00:11:20.33
that God
intervenes directly. Yeah.
00:11:20.36\00:11:22.37
I think a Christian and a
person of faith to some point
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just has to
stick with their faith
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and take the consequences. Yeah.
00:11:27.83\00:11:29.20
This is what we have to do.
00:11:29.23\00:11:30.60
We have to believe that
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religious freedom
is a gift from God.
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And also we have to think
about those who are persecuted.
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You know, we are
living in a world
00:11:37.75\00:11:39.13
where everyday people
are loosing their job,
00:11:39.16\00:11:41.91
people are
arrested, put in jail.
00:11:41.94\00:11:43.97
We see that more and
more churches are burned.
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Christian and other, you
know, are burned too or killed.
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We want--we don't
want to accept that.
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For us, it's just the
opposite of what we believe.
00:11:54.13\00:11:57.82
And this is why we have to think
00:11:57.85\00:11:59.34
and to pray for
those who are persecuted
00:11:59.37\00:12:01.53
and also to help them.
00:12:01.56\00:12:03.73
Years ago I remember
being quite captivated
00:12:05.25\00:12:07.96
by an ongoing television
series called the World at War.
00:12:07.99\00:12:12.23
It was characterized by
an introductory sequence
00:12:12.26\00:12:14.84
where there were flames
licking up around the title
00:12:14.87\00:12:18.19
to illustrate the destruction
00:12:18.22\00:12:19.87
that came upon the
world in World War II.
00:12:19.90\00:12:23.21
But, you know,
in a very real way
00:12:23.24\00:12:25.74
when we talk
religious liberty and religion
00:12:25.77\00:12:28.42
and the end of the
world, we are talking about
00:12:28.45\00:12:30.60
a world at war
against God's ways.
00:12:30.63\00:12:33.54
In Milton's Paradise Lost.
00:12:33.57\00:12:35.67
He has Satan declare war,
continual war against heaven
00:12:35.70\00:12:40.41
and that's really what I see.
00:12:40.44\00:12:43.26
But I am encouraged to
remember the words of Jesus
00:12:43.29\00:12:46.42
when he said, "In this
world you will have trouble
00:12:46.45\00:12:50.46
but have no fear or fear not
00:12:50.49\00:12:52.47
because I've
overcome the world."
00:12:52.50\00:12:55.57
It's our challenge when we
stand up for religious freedom
00:12:55.60\00:12:59.59
to tackle all the
powers and principalities
00:12:59.62\00:13:02.57
that are dedicated toward
00:13:02.60\00:13:04.04
diminishing religious
freedom, thwarting faith.
00:13:04.07\00:13:07.64
But it's our
privilege to remember too
00:13:07.67\00:13:10.08
that the end is sure,
that religious liberty,
00:13:10.11\00:13:13.98
God's way will win at
one day and one day soon.
00:13:14.01\00:13:20.35
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:20.38\00:13:23.81