Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000187A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program that brings you 00:26 up-to-date news, views, discussion, 00:29 and information on religious liberty around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on the program is Dr. John Graz, 00:40 director of religious-- 00:42 the department of religious liberty 00:43 for our world Seventh-day Adventist headquarters. 00:46 Yeah, I am very happy to be here. Thank you. 00:50 I was trying to think of a connection with world-- 00:52 world is a loaded word 00:54 but really that's-- you work in the entire world. 00:57 Yeah, I'm traveling around the world. 00:58 Absolutely. When we talk about religious liberty. 01:01 It's easy in the United States, I think you know. 01:03 It's all about the constitution. 01:04 It's all about the Supreme Court. Yeah. 01:06 That's a hugely bigger picture than that. 01:09 And I think you're able to see that. 01:11 Looking at the world, 01:13 what do you see as trends or challenges? 01:15 You know, where are we globally with religious liberty? 01:18 Yeah, I think one of the big challenges today is 01:21 really the separation between church and state 01:24 because in some countries they see the united, 01:29 you know, the union between church and state as big factor, 01:34 an important factor of building a strong state-- 01:38 A coherent society, right? 01:39 Yeah, strong society. 01:41 It means, you know, the state take care about 01:43 all these practical issues, taxes and so on. 01:46 And the church try to educate people. 01:49 And we can understand, you know, it has always been the same. 01:53 But of course, in the global vision of religious freedom 01:57 you may have the question, what about those 02:00 who are not following the main church 02:02 or the church which has been recognized by the state. 02:06 Because their state wants to deal with a big organization. 02:09 Not wait for 30, 50, 1,000 small organization. 02:14 It means the state will give 02:16 the priority to the main organization. 02:19 And what about the others? 02:21 And as I said very often 02:24 the temptation when you have this kind of alliance 02:27 is everyone try to be-- 02:29 to receive something from the other. 02:31 It means the state will ask the church or the main church 02:35 to support them, to help them 02:38 to implement some laws and so on. 02:41 The other side, you know, the church will ask the state 02:45 to help them in building churches or mosque and so on 02:50 but also in protecting them 02:52 from the attack of other groups. 02:54 Now aren't there inherent risks in this for-- 02:57 Yeah, dissidence and heretics are we know that. 03:01 And also people from other religious group. 03:04 It means we have to be very careful about that 03:07 because that's a human tendency and it can happen everywhere 03:11 because it has already happened in the past. 03:15 And apparently it could be a good way 03:19 to build a strong state 03:21 but when it comes to freedom it's not a good way. 03:24 It's too dangerous. 03:26 And of course every state and every church that-- 03:29 every variety of religion that exists in those places. 03:32 Believes that it's the appropriate and correct one. 03:35 Yeah. And so they're acting 03:37 as though they own the universe. 03:38 And then you have a problem when the neighboring religion, 03:41 neighboring country's religion comes 03:43 and it's seen as threat from a country not just another region. 03:46 Yeah, right. And, you know, at the end. 03:49 You know, it's a question of power. 03:51 Of course in the deal you got power. 03:53 You got much more power if you are the state 03:56 and if you're the church or the religion, 03:59 you also get more power. 04:01 You know, like a case--like we've a case like, you know, 04:05 Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani in Iran. 04:09 You know, a man who is a good citizen, 04:11 a good father and so on. 04:14 He's in jail and he can be executed. 04:17 Why? He's not can be. 04:19 That's the-- He has been- 04:21 He's been convicted on an appeal 04:23 that was upheld that he will be hanged, 04:25 I think, hanged for his faith-- Hanged, yeah. 04:27 And then we're waiting. 04:28 Fortunately, because the reaction of the world, 04:31 do you know, and people were in favor of religious freedom 04:34 he is still alive. 04:36 But his family--whole his family is under pressure. 04:40 And, you know, he has just one word to say that, 04:42 you know, I recant and he will be free. 04:45 Is he a criminal? No. 04:48 Is he a danger for his country? No. 04:52 What is the problem? 04:53 The problem is, it's a religious problem. 04:56 And in a country where church 04:58 and or religion and state are together, 05:01 a religious problem become a state problem. 05:05 It means he just changed his religion. 05:08 You know, when he was 13 05:11 he did not believed in anything 05:12 but when he was 18-- He was born as Muslim. 05:14 Yeah, he was born. 05:16 Even he said that he was never really practicing 05:19 but they ask his family, family, yes. 05:23 And when he was 18, he became Christian. 05:26 Then he became pastor. 05:28 That's a crime because it's an apostasy. 05:31 And, you know, you have 05:32 a religious traditions about apostasy. 05:36 You know, when you commit apostasy 05:39 you should be just dis-fellowshipped 05:40 from your church, that's all. 05:42 In this case, the country and the religion 05:43 are all wrapped up together. 05:44 Yeah, exactly. In this case, your right 05:48 to follow your--you know, your desire or your wish 05:52 according to your conscious becomes a crime 05:57 according to the state. 05:58 It means you become a criminal 06:01 because you have religious conviction. 06:04 Why? Because state and religion are together. 06:08 It's a good point you're making. 06:09 I've often tried to point this out. 06:12 In the United States the constitution 06:14 mandates the separation of church and the state. 06:16 So in that regard, it's a very--not unique 06:20 but that describes the American experiment. 06:23 But really, everywhere in the world 06:26 that's the safest model, isn't it? Yeah-- 06:28 Even thought very few national models 06:31 are set up that way. 06:33 Even Canada right on the border 06:35 doesn't have a separation of church-- 06:36 This is why, you know, it's so important 06:38 to define religious freedom in the U.S. 06:40 because the U.S. has been a model 06:42 and still is a model for the world. 06:45 And it has to stay. 06:46 But it cannot be if nobody define 06:50 and promote religious freedom. 06:51 As I said, you know, the day where we will have 06:54 30 or 10 big religious freedom festival, 06:59 maybe, people will be more aware of that. 07:01 You said that in another program. Yeah, I said that. 07:04 And I can tell that the-- the viewers 07:07 if they don't know by now you are committed 07:10 to producing these festivals all over the world 07:13 as a way to bring awareness to religious liberty 07:15 by a public celebration and discussion with value. 07:19 You know, I was invited to give lecture in colleges, 07:23 public college, community colleges, 07:25 universities, and also academies. 07:28 And I asked the question to people. 07:29 How many of you were born in one religion? 07:34 And how many of you changed or your family changed? 07:38 And a number-- and I said to them-- 07:40 What response did you get in different? 07:42 Yeah, many, many changed, you know? 07:43 Many change, their family change, and they change. 07:46 I said, you know, if you were living in such a country 07:48 around the world, you will be arrested, 07:50 put in jail, and may be sentence to death. 07:53 Do you want to live in such a country? 07:57 That very clear, where you can be executed 08:00 just because, you know, your parents 08:01 or yourself decided to change your religion. 08:04 Yeah. But that's happened. 08:07 Asia Bibi's another case. 08:08 Still, you know, she is still alive. 08:11 She was just a farmer working in a farm. 08:14 It means she was not really a rich man-- 08:17 Is it in Pakistan? Pakistan, yeah. 08:19 A very, you know, poor class. 08:21 She was working and one day 08:23 she brought water to her friends, 08:26 women friends, you know? 08:28 And they refused to drink her water. 08:30 And she asked why? 08:32 She said, because you are impure and the water will be impure. 08:36 So what does it mean? 08:37 Not clean, you know. What does it mean? 08:39 Means because you are Christian we cannot drink your water. 08:43 Everything you touch become impure, you know? 08:46 And she said that-- but I don't know-- 08:49 we don't know really what she said. 08:50 Maybe she said-- 08:52 There was clearly some sort of an argument. 08:54 Yeah. She was probably very careful 08:57 but she may have, you know, some, huh, 08:59 that's nothing or why are you doing that? 09:02 That was enough. 09:04 Few days later, you know, the police came. 09:06 They arrest her for blasphemy. 09:09 She's in jail, she was defended by the governor of Punjab. 09:13 They kill him. 09:15 She was defended by the minister of the government-- 09:18 For religious affairs. For religious affairs. 09:20 They kill him and she is still in jail. 09:24 You know, do you want to live in a country like that 09:26 where if you say something 09:28 or give a kind of gesture about a religion 09:32 or the leader of a religion 09:33 you would be arrested and be executed? 09:36 Yeah. And you say, no, 09:37 thats-- it doesn't happen. 09:39 Yes, it happens in several countries around the world. 09:43 Now I should not so much defend Pakistan as qualified. 09:47 Pakistan, it's like a double hazard. 09:49 There are provisions built into the law 09:53 against conversion so on. 09:55 But on other levels the law 09:56 there is relatively benign. 09:59 But the society and the Imams, who regulate their religion, 10:05 can be even more aggressive than the state. 10:07 And yet the state will not interfere. 10:10 Like for example, in Pakistan, I know, 10:12 that it's a common practice, 10:14 if a child--usually a daughter tries to leave 10:16 their religious faith that the family will kill her. 10:21 Never once has the state prosecuted them for that. 10:24 And even you can be sure that the people 10:26 in the government disagree with that. 10:28 Yes-- They disagree. 10:30 They are not game to even try. 10:32 The society would resist them or assassinate-- 10:34 The governor of Punjab, 10:36 you know, he disagreed officially. 10:39 He was a Muslim-- His bodyguard killed him 10:41 and he's being hailed as a hero. 10:43 Yeah and exactly. 10:45 It means, you have also to deal with the culture of the country, 10:48 with the religion of the country. 10:50 And it's not always easy for the government 10:54 to really to try to be-- to follow more-- 10:57 to give more freedom or to accept more freedom. 11:00 But still we cannot say nothing about that. 11:03 We say, you know, they are courageous people. 11:06 And--but we disagree with that. 11:08 People should have the right to decide. 11:11 And, you know, sometime you may believe that, 11:14 is it necessary, you know, 11:16 all these trouble for just a religion? 11:20 You know, that's a question people ask, you know? 11:22 You know, look what is the result? 11:24 You have people have been killed 11:25 just for question of religion. 11:27 Why everyone keep what they have, 11:30 keep your religion and you will have no problems. 11:33 Why do you want to have a problem? 11:35 Why do you preach what you believe in countries 11:39 where people will have a problem? 11:41 You know, I mentioned another day, 11:44 you know, this young mother who have been persecuted 11:47 just because she accepted in watching a program here. 11:51 You know, she was living in a country 11:53 where you don't have any religious freedom. 11:55 And now she lost her family, 11:58 her job, her house, her children, 12:01 probably, two just because she became Christian. 12:04 Now one thing that's worth mentioning-- 12:06 quite a people saying this, 12:08 you know, why risk all this just for religion? 12:11 The society's and the attitudes toward the gamut of behavior 12:16 in those countries is such that if it wasn't religion 12:20 then they would be equally punished 12:22 if they had a divergent political viewpoint. 12:24 What it really is, is an attempt to control people's thinking. 12:28 Yeah. And so we need to fight that. 12:30 And the benefit is that there is social freedom 12:34 as well as religious freedom. 12:35 It operates on several levels. 12:38 We'll be right back after a short break 12:40 to continue this very interesting discussion 12:42 of how the world turns as far as religious liberty. |
Revised 2014-12-17