Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program that brings you
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up-to-date news,
views, discussion,
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and information on religious
liberty around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Dr. John Graz,
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director of religious--
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the department
of religious liberty
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for our world Seventh-day
Adventist headquarters.
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Yeah, I am very happy
to be here. Thank you.
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I was trying to think of
a connection with world--
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world is a loaded word
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but really that's-- you
work in the entire world.
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Yeah, I'm
traveling around the world.
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Absolutely. When we
talk about religious liberty.
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It's easy in the United
States, I think you know.
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It's all about the constitution.
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It's all about the
Supreme Court. Yeah.
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That's a hugely
bigger picture than that.
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And I think
you're able to see that.
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Looking at the world,
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what do you see as
trends or challenges?
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You know, where are we
globally with religious liberty?
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Yeah, I think one of
the big challenges today is
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really the separation
between church and state
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because in some
countries they see the united,
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you know, the union between
church and state as big factor,
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an important factor of
building a strong state--
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A coherent society, right?
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Yeah, strong society.
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It means, you know,
the state take care about
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all these practical
issues, taxes and so on.
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And the church
try to educate people.
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And we can understand, you know,
it has always been the same.
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But of course, in the global
vision of religious freedom
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you may have the
question, what about those
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who are not
following the main church
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or the church which has
been recognized by the state.
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Because their state wants to
deal with a big organization.
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Not wait for 30, 50,
1,000 small organization.
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It means the state will give
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the priority to
the main organization.
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And what about the others?
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And as I said very often
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the temptation when you
have this kind of alliance
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is everyone try to be--
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to receive
something from the other.
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It means the state will ask
the church or the main church
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to support them, to help them
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to implement
some laws and so on.
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The other side, you know,
the church will ask the state
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to help them in building
churches or mosque and so on
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but also in protecting them
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from the attack of other groups.
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Now aren't there
inherent risks in this for--
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Yeah, dissidence and
heretics are we know that.
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And also people from
other religious group.
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It means we have to be
very careful about that
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because that's a human tendency
and it can happen everywhere
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because it has
already happened in the past.
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And apparently it
could be a good way
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to build a strong state
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but when it comes to
freedom it's not a good way.
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It's too dangerous.
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And of course every
state and every church that--
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every variety of religion
that exists in those places.
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Believes that it's the
appropriate and correct one.
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Yeah. And so they're acting
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as though they own the universe.
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And then you have a problem
when the neighboring religion,
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neighboring
country's religion comes
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and it's seen as threat from a
country not just another region.
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Yeah, right. And,
you know, at the end.
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You know, it's a
question of power.
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Of course in the
deal you got power.
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You got much more
power if you are the state
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and if you're the
church or the religion,
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you also get more power.
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You know, like a case--like
we've a case like, you know,
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Pastor Youcef
Nadarkhani in Iran.
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You know, a man
who is a good citizen,
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a good father and so on.
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He's in jail and
he can be executed.
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Why? He's not can be.
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That's the-- He has been-
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He's been convicted on an appeal
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that was upheld
that he will be hanged,
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I think, hanged for
his faith-- Hanged, yeah.
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And then we're waiting.
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Fortunately, because
the reaction of the world,
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do you know, and people were
in favor of religious freedom
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he is still alive.
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But his family--whole
his family is under pressure.
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And, you know, he has
just one word to say that,
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you know, I recant
and he will be free.
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Is he a criminal? No.
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Is he a danger
for his country? No.
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What is the problem?
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The problem is,
it's a religious problem.
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And in a country where church
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and or religion
and state are together,
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a religious problem
become a state problem.
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It means he just
changed his religion.
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You know, when he was 13
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he did not believed in anything
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but when he was 18--
He was born as Muslim.
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Yeah, he was born.
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Even he said that he
was never really practicing
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but they ask his
family, family, yes.
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And when he was 18,
he became Christian.
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Then he became pastor.
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That's a crime
because it's an apostasy.
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And, you know, you have
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a religious
traditions about apostasy.
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You know, when
you commit apostasy
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you should be
just dis-fellowshipped
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from your church, that's all.
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In this case, the
country and the religion
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are all wrapped up together.
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Yeah, exactly. In
this case, your right
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to follow your--you
know, your desire or your wish
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according to your
conscious becomes a crime
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according to the state.
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It means you become a criminal
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because you have
religious conviction.
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Why? Because state
and religion are together.
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It's a good point you're making.
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I've often tried
to point this out.
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In the United
States the constitution
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mandates the separation
of church and the state.
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So in that regard,
it's a very--not unique
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but that describes
the American experiment.
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But really,
everywhere in the world
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that's the safest
model, isn't it? Yeah--
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Even thought very
few national models
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are set up that way.
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Even Canada right on the border
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doesn't have a
separation of church--
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This is why, you
know, it's so important
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to define
religious freedom in the U.S.
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because the
U.S. has been a model
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and still is a
model for the world.
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And it has to stay.
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But it cannot
be if nobody define
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and promote religious freedom.
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As I said, you know,
the day where we will have
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30 or 10 big
religious freedom festival,
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maybe, people will
be more aware of that.
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You said that in another
program. Yeah, I said that.
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And I can tell
that the-- the viewers
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if they don't know
by now you are committed
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to producing these
festivals all over the world
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as a way to bring
awareness to religious liberty
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by a public celebration
and discussion with value.
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You know, I was invited
to give lecture in colleges,
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public college,
community colleges,
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universities,
and also academies.
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And I asked the
question to people.
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How many of you were
born in one religion?
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And how many of you
changed or your family changed?
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And a number--
and I said to them--
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What response did
you get in different?
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Yeah, many, many
changed, you know?
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Many change, their
family change, and they change.
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I said, you know, if you
were living in such a country
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around the world,
you will be arrested,
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put in jail, and may
be sentence to death.
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Do you want to
live in such a country?
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That very clear,
where you can be executed
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just because, you
know, your parents
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or yourself decided
to change your religion.
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Yeah. But that's happened.
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Asia Bibi's another case.
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Still, you know,
she is still alive.
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She was just a
farmer working in a farm.
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It means she was
not really a rich man--
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Is it in
Pakistan? Pakistan, yeah.
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A very, you know, poor class.
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She was working and one day
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she brought
water to her friends,
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women friends, you know?
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And they refused
to drink her water.
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And she asked why?
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She said, because you are impure
and the water will be impure.
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So what does it mean?
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Not clean, you
know. What does it mean?
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Means because you are Christian
we cannot drink your water.
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Everything you touch
become impure, you know?
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And she said
that-- but I don't know--
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we don't know
really what she said.
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Maybe she said--
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There was clearly
some sort of an argument.
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Yeah. She was
probably very careful
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but she may have,
you know, some, huh,
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that's nothing or
why are you doing that?
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That was enough.
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Few days later, you
know, the police came.
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They arrest her for blasphemy.
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She's in jail, she was defended
by the governor of Punjab.
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They kill him.
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She was defended by the
minister of the government--
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For religious
affairs. For religious affairs.
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They kill him and
she is still in jail.
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You know, do you want to
live in a country like that
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where if you say something
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or give a kind of
gesture about a religion
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or the leader of a religion
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you would be
arrested and be executed?
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Yeah. And you say, no,
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thats-- it doesn't happen.
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Yes, it happens in several
countries around the world.
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Now I should not so much
defend Pakistan as qualified.
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Pakistan, it's
like a double hazard.
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There are
provisions built into the law
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against conversion so on.
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But on other levels the law
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there is relatively benign.
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But the society and the Imams,
who regulate their religion,
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can be even more
aggressive than the state.
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And yet the state
will not interfere.
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Like for example,
in Pakistan, I know,
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that it's a common practice,
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if a child--usually a
daughter tries to leave
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their religious faith
that the family will kill her.
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Never once has the state
prosecuted them for that.
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And even you can be
sure that the people
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in the government
disagree with that.
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Yes-- They disagree.
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They are not game to even try.
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The society would
resist them or assassinate--
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The governor of Punjab,
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you know, he
disagreed officially.
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He was a Muslim--
His bodyguard killed him
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and he's being hailed as a hero.
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Yeah and exactly.
00:10:43.19\00:10:45.32
It means, you have also to deal
with the culture of the country,
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with the
religion of the country.
00:10:48.99\00:10:50.79
And it's not always
easy for the government
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to really to try to
be-- to follow more--
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to give more freedom
or to accept more freedom.
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But still we cannot
say nothing about that.
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We say, you know,
they are courageous people.
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And--but we disagree with that.
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People should have
the right to decide.
00:11:08.89\00:11:11.32
And, you know,
sometime you may believe that,
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is it necessary, you know,
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all these trouble
for just a religion?
00:11:16.74\00:11:20.08
You know, that's a
question people ask, you know?
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You know, look
what is the result?
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You have people have been killed
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just for question of religion.
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Why everyone
keep what they have,
00:11:27.43\00:11:30.46
keep your religion and
you will have no problems.
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Why do you want
to have a problem?
00:11:33.38\00:11:35.04
Why do you preach what
you believe in countries
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where people
will have a problem?
00:11:39.68\00:11:41.55
You know, I
mentioned another day,
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you know, this young
mother who have been persecuted
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just because she accepted
in watching a program here.
00:11:47.81\00:11:51.62
You know, she was
living in a country
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where you don't have
any religious freedom.
00:11:53.05\00:11:55.85
And now she lost her family,
00:11:55.88\00:11:57.98
her job, her
house, her children,
00:11:58.01\00:12:01.57
probably, two just
because she became Christian.
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Now one thing
that's worth mentioning--
00:12:04.99\00:12:06.72
quite a people saying this,
00:12:06.75\00:12:08.79
you know, why risk all
this just for religion?
00:12:08.82\00:12:11.22
The society's and the attitudes
toward the gamut of behavior
00:12:11.25\00:12:16.02
in those countries is
such that if it wasn't religion
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then they would
be equally punished
00:12:20.29\00:12:22.23
if they had a
divergent political viewpoint.
00:12:22.26\00:12:24.83
What it really is, is an attempt
to control people's thinking.
00:12:24.86\00:12:28.41
Yeah. And so we
need to fight that.
00:12:28.44\00:12:30.77
And the benefit is
that there is social freedom
00:12:30.80\00:12:34.55
as well as religious freedom.
00:12:34.58\00:12:35.95
It operates on several levels.
00:12:35.98\00:12:38.15
We'll be right
back after a short break
00:12:38.18\00:12:40.01
to continue this very
interesting discussion
00:12:40.04\00:12:42.09
of how the world turns
as far as religious liberty.
00:12:42.12\00:12:45.46