Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000184A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program bringing you discussion and news 00:27 and interesting guests to discuss religious liberty. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on this program is Dr. John Graz, world leader 00:39 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church 00:42 in the area of religious liberty. 00:43 Religious liberty, yeah, and also Secretary General 00:45 of the International Religious Liberty Association. 00:48 Absolutely, yes, lot of hats. 00:51 But some of them-- 00:53 Yeah. One at a time. 00:55 And you do many, many things for religious liberty. 00:58 And I know you're traveling almost constantly. 01:01 But every time I talk to you, 01:03 I can almost guarantee that you'll bring in 01:06 some exciting development on these international 01:09 festivals of religious liberty. 01:10 Yes. Oh, thank you, 01:12 because that's something I like very much to share. 01:15 You know, I just come back 01:16 from a trip of 21 days in Asia. 01:19 Then I spent two days at home. 01:22 Then go to Europe for two weeks. 01:24 But, you know, going back to Asia, 01:26 we had a festival in Indonesia. 01:29 That was the first public festival of religious freedom. 01:34 And it was held in Manado. 01:37 Manado, it's a part of Indonesia where still, 01:40 you know, Christian are majority about 60%. 01:43 And they have very good relations with Muslims. 01:47 And this is why when you have it 01:49 everywhere in Indonesia, you know, 01:51 church burnt and conflicts. People were killed. 01:54 You remember we went together to-- 01:56 Ambon, I remember that. Ambon, you know, 01:58 when-- by the way, 01:59 you know, when I was in Manado, 02:00 I talked about a trip to Ambon. 02:02 And people say, "You went to Ambon?" 02:05 And then I said, "Yes." 02:06 When? In 2003, I was, 2002-- I forget the year, 02:10 but it was only a few months after the-- 02:12 They said, "You were there. You were there." 02:14 I said, "Yeah, we were there." 02:17 But you know, there--and they invited in this festival, 02:21 they invited people from the government. 02:23 They invited religious leaders. 02:25 It means we had Muslim leaders 02:28 talking about religious freedom, 02:29 Hindus, Buddhist, and Chinese Confucians, 02:34 you know, their religion, traditional religion in China 02:37 and so on protestant and catholic 02:39 speaking about religious freedom. 02:41 And the strong support from the people. 02:43 You know, I thought that about the program, you know. 02:46 I thought that we have too many people 02:48 speaking in this program because in normally 02:51 a festival is first, you know, 02:54 show about religious freedom 02:57 and many, many songs or musicians are invited-- 03:02 Well, that's been an entertaining element 03:03 in getting the message across between music. 03:06 It means it's a very pleasant, very attractive program. 03:08 And I thought that man, 03:10 they are-- they had a good group. 03:11 They are good group of singers. 03:13 But, you know, people are talking too much here. 03:16 But I saw that people were very receptive 03:19 and they applaud all the time. 03:20 I said, my, that could be different. 03:24 And that was really a big event 03:26 and very important event because that was a first 03:29 public festival of religious freedom. 03:32 We can say the first event 03:34 on religious freedom organized in Indonesia. 03:39 You and I have talked about this privately, 03:41 but on the program, may be this is a good time 03:43 to bring up something that I know troubles a few people 03:46 even some of our own fellow Seventh-day Adventists. 03:49 There's the fear that talking to other religions 03:52 and giving other religions a chance 03:55 to express their viewpoint that you're sort of playing 03:57 into some sort of ecumenical syncretistic movement. 04:03 Yeah, yeah. You know, we maybe have one day 04:06 discussion about that because, 04:07 you know, that totally-- it's a big confusion. 04:11 It's not because you meet people 04:13 from other religion that you want 04:15 to change your religion. Of course. 04:17 You know, that's totally different. 04:19 Jesus met a lot of people. 04:21 He met Romans. He met Jews. 04:23 He met Pagan and so on. 04:25 And He still--He was believed to His mission. 04:28 I mean, the same, you know, 04:29 you cannot defend religious freedom for all 04:32 without talking before the people. Absolutely. 04:35 And especially with the leaders 04:38 refer leaders because if they disagree, that's a problem. 04:41 You have to try to convince them. 04:43 They have to let people to decide 04:45 about their own religion. 04:47 And true religious freedom is meaningless 04:49 unless everybody has the same right 04:52 to hold their viewpoint and to express it. 04:54 Exactly and when you invite these people, 04:57 you give them the possibility 04:58 to speak about religious freedom. 05:00 They don't have this possibility. 05:02 You know, when we create an event, 05:04 we give the opportunity to those who want 05:07 to say something about religious freedom. 05:09 Official's people, member of the government 05:12 to speak about this topic. 05:14 You know, they will not have other opportunity. 05:16 How many time you can ask them, 05:18 how many time have you been invited 05:20 to speak about religious freedom? 05:22 Ask that to any kind of leaders. 05:25 They will say never, never. 05:26 We are almost the only one to invite people 05:29 and to give them the opportunity 05:31 to speak about these very important values. 05:34 And the festival, you know, 05:36 one of the goal of the festival 05:37 is different than the congress. 05:40 The congress we invite expert. 05:42 The meeting of expert we invite very good expert. 05:46 You know, you have a think tank, 05:48 meeting of expert. 05:50 You have a congress saying per assume where expert, 05:53 religious leader, and so on are together. 05:55 They share. Then you have the festival. 05:58 The festival is for all. It's a mass meeting. 06:02 More you have people in this meeting, better it is. 06:06 More you have people together 06:07 to say we believe in religious freedom. 06:10 Thank God for religious freedom. 06:11 And thank our country to protect religious freedom. 06:15 Then the message is very strong. 06:18 Yeah. And I think it was explained that way 06:21 that there really can't be any objection to anybody 06:24 that loves the God given value 06:27 that we share religious freedom 06:29 because this is only furthering it. Yeah. 06:31 Even if it gives a platform to someone whose believes 06:34 that I'm greatly troubled by, 06:37 you know, they're not forcing it on me. 06:39 But it's an open forum where you can turn that idea 06:43 and I'd say, but some people that object. 06:44 It's giving us the opportunity 06:46 to speak our values to others 06:48 that wouldn't otherwise hear it also. 06:49 And also this is what I said very often 06:52 when people ask the question. 06:53 You know, they see ecumenisms. 06:57 People being joining together 06:59 or sometime being forced to do that. 07:01 And at the end-- Compromising. 07:03 And at the end to organize one big church, 07:07 one Christian church, or one big organization 07:10 where all people would be together. 07:12 And may be after tried to force them, 07:14 "What is religious freedom?" 07:16 It's just the opposite. Right. 07:17 Religious freedom is if you want to join this group, 07:20 you can. If you do not, 07:21 if you don't want, we defend you. 07:24 We defend your right to be different. 07:26 We defend your right to be free. 07:28 We defend your right to be independent. 07:31 You want to join a church, you have the right. 07:33 You don't, we will protect you. 07:35 You know, it's just a difference way. 07:39 There is no confusion. 07:40 And it's--you know, it will be willing to defend 07:42 someone's right to believe or not believe. 07:45 Something you find objectionable 07:46 even to defend it with your life. 07:48 That's the great irony. Yeah. 07:49 Something that I find a pernicious doctrine. 07:53 I will go to the end degree to defend their right-- 07:55 your right to hold that. 07:57 And of course, we defend the right of people 07:59 to share what they believe. 08:00 It means if you don't have religious freedom, 08:02 you don't have evangelism. 08:03 You know, I come back 08:05 I was invited in the Philippine. 08:07 And I was in-- I was the evangelist, 08:11 you know, that is also something 08:12 we have to say because people believe 08:14 that if you defend religious freedom, 08:16 you are disconnected. 08:17 No, I want to be part of evangelization 08:20 or evangelistic campaign because that is an expression 08:24 of my religious freedom. Absolutely. 08:25 And when you preach, 08:27 we don't preach something general. 08:28 We preach what we believe. 08:30 And we preach what we believe. 08:32 And we ask people if you are interested, 08:35 if you feel that the Holy Spirit 08:36 is working in you, join us. 08:39 But we accept that other people are doing the same 08:42 because they have the same freedom. 08:44 No religious freedom, no evangelism. 08:47 And I was involved in that. 08:49 And that was very, very pleasant. 08:51 And you know, you let people to decide. 08:53 At the end, they have the responsibility 08:56 of their choice. But you give them a choice. 08:59 Yeah, I agree with you absolutely. 09:00 And it's my study of the history 09:02 of the Seventh-day Adventist church. 09:03 Religious liberty is integrally tied up 09:05 with the essence of mission. 09:07 It isn't just something we believe on this side. 09:10 This is what we're all about. 09:12 Proclaiming what we believe. Yeah and now-- 09:15 Religious liberty goal, you know, 09:17 I'm gonna give my talk a bit, 09:19 but religious liberty goes to the initial liberation 09:21 from the power of sin 09:23 that Christ offered on our behalf. 09:24 And now as free men representing Christ, 09:28 we shouldn't be bound by people's ideas are restricted. 09:31 We argue that they all have the right 09:33 to believe and disbelieve. 09:35 You know, I was in San Pablo in the Philippines. 09:38 And at the end of the campaign, 09:39 we had 80 baptism and 40 people 09:43 who decided to be baptized. 09:45 But they had still to study 09:47 because they did that very seriously. That's good. 09:49 You know, the people who were baptized, 09:50 I received the Bible study for several months. 09:55 And they don't just arrive 09:56 and it was what we call a reaping campaign. 09:59 But, you know, I thought 10:01 about look the country is not really very rich 10:04 and you have a lot people who have to deal 10:06 to struggle with a daily life. 10:08 They don't have enough money and so on. 10:10 At the same time, you have also 10:11 things like alcoholism, 10:14 you have many things which are bad, 10:16 which create problem. 10:17 When you preach the gospel, you change life of people. 10:21 Jesus has got changed life of people. 10:23 And they will probably-- 10:25 a number of them will stop drinking. 10:27 And number of them will start to study. 10:29 They will send their children to the school. 10:32 It's a revolution. 10:33 It doesn't curl a revolution, 10:35 but it very helpful for people even if it is religious. 10:40 Then we say that we have to defend this way 10:42 because it improve the life of people at the end. 10:45 That is religious freedom. 10:47 Absolutely. I was gonna say though-- 10:51 we can show and maintain 10:53 that religion improves people a lot. 10:57 But is it necessary when we're dealing 10:59 with the civil society or civil government 11:02 to say that religion will be to the advantage 11:05 of your society. I don't think so. 11:08 We just need to appeal that this is a God given right 11:11 that people should be able to believe and disbelieve. 11:14 It's a side benefit that it also improves the society. 11:17 Yeah, this is why you know-- 11:18 It's not the argument for it. 11:20 That's the benefit to force them. 11:21 Yeah, I think we are not pushing 11:23 to other Christian government, but we are pushing, 11:26 praying to other Christian people in the nation. 11:30 It means you don't necessarily have a Christian nation, 11:33 but you have Christian living in a nation. 11:35 And there is something that we don't normally 11:38 talk about, but I say it worked out in the world. 11:41 Christian-- since we are Christians 11:45 talking about freedom to advance Christianity, 11:47 true Christianity that's the enemy of an unjust state. 11:51 That's the enemy of an autocratic state. 11:54 Not that it attacks it directly, 11:56 but it will so change society 11:59 that will become unsustainable. 12:01 Yeah, right. 12:02 We--I don't think we should say much about it, 12:05 but I think certain leaders see that. 12:08 And that's often why there is such an antagonism to-- 12:11 But, you know, coming back-- 12:13 Civil or religious liberty. 12:14 Lincoln, coming back to the festival, 12:16 I would like to explain why it's important. 12:19 We need to do that. 12:20 I can see our time running out. 12:21 So let's take a break now. 12:23 And we'll be back shortly and Dr. Graz will explain 12:26 the real importance of these festivals 12:28 of religious liberty that are being held 12:30 all over the world, not just here or there. 12:33 It's a growing phenomenon. We'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17