Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you discussion and news
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and interesting guests to
discuss religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this program
is Dr. John Graz, world leader
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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in the area of
religious liberty.
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Religious liberty, yeah,
and also Secretary General
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of the International
Religious Liberty Association.
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Absolutely, yes, lot of hats.
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But some of them--
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Yeah. One at a time.
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And you do many, many
things for religious liberty.
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And I know you're
traveling almost constantly.
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But every time I talk to you,
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I can almost
guarantee that you'll bring in
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some exciting development
on these international
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festivals of religious liberty.
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Yes. Oh, thank you,
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because that's something
I like very much to share.
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You know, I just come back
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from a trip of 21 days in Asia.
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Then I spent two days at home.
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Then go to Europe for two weeks.
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But, you know,
going back to Asia,
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we had a festival in Indonesia.
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That was the first public
festival of religious freedom.
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And it was held in Manado.
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Manado, it's a part
of Indonesia where still,
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you know, Christian
are majority about 60%.
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And they have very
good relations with Muslims.
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And this is why when you have it
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everywhere in
Indonesia, you know,
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church burnt and
conflicts. People were killed.
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You remember we
went together to--
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Ambon, I remember
that. Ambon, you know,
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when-- by the way,
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you know, when I was in Manado,
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I talked about a trip to Ambon.
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And people say,
"You went to Ambon?"
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And then I said, "Yes."
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When? In 2003, I was,
2002-- I forget the year,
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but it was only a
few months after the--
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They said, "You were
there. You were there."
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I said, "Yeah, we were there."
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But you know, there--and
they invited in this festival,
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they invited people
from the government.
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They invited religious leaders.
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It means we had Muslim leaders
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talking about religious freedom,
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Hindus, Buddhist,
and Chinese Confucians,
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you know, their religion,
traditional religion in China
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and so on
protestant and catholic
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speaking about
religious freedom.
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And the strong
support from the people.
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You know, I thought that
about the program, you know.
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I thought that we
have too many people
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speaking in this
program because in normally
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a festival is first, you know,
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show about religious freedom
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and many, many songs
or musicians are invited--
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Well, that's been
an entertaining element
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in getting the
message across between music.
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It means it's a very pleasant,
very attractive program.
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And I thought that man,
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they are-- they
had a good group.
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They are good group of singers.
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But, you know, people
are talking too much here.
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But I saw that
people were very receptive
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and they applaud all the time.
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I said, my, that
could be different.
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And that was really a big event
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and very important
event because that was a first
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public festival
of religious freedom.
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We can say the first event
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on religious freedom
organized in Indonesia.
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You and I have
talked about this privately,
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but on the program,
may be this is a good time
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to bring up something that
I know troubles a few people
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even some of our own
fellow Seventh-day Adventists.
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There's the fear that
talking to other religions
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and giving other
religions a chance
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to express their viewpoint
that you're sort of playing
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into some sort of ecumenical
syncretistic movement.
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Yeah, yeah. You
know, we maybe have one day
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discussion about that because,
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you know, that
totally-- it's a big confusion.
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It's not because you meet people
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from other
religion that you want
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to change your
religion. Of course.
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You know, that's
totally different.
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Jesus met a lot of people.
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He met Romans. He met Jews.
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He met Pagan and so on.
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And He still--He was
believed to His mission.
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I mean, the same, you know,
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you cannot defend
religious freedom for all
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without talking before
the people. Absolutely.
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And especially with the leaders
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refer leaders because if
they disagree, that's a problem.
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You have to try
to convince them.
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They have to
let people to decide
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about their own religion.
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And true religious
freedom is meaningless
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unless everybody
has the same right
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to hold their
viewpoint and to express it.
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Exactly and when
you invite these people,
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you give them the possibility
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to speak about
religious freedom.
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They don't have
this possibility.
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You know, when
we create an event,
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we give the
opportunity to those who want
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to say something
about religious freedom.
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Official's people,
member of the government
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to speak about this topic.
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You know, they will
not have other opportunity.
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How many time you can ask them,
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how many time
have you been invited
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to speak about
religious freedom?
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Ask that to any kind of leaders.
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They will say never, never.
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We are almost the
only one to invite people
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and to give them the opportunity
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to speak about these
very important values.
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And the festival, you know,
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one of the goal of the festival
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is different than the congress.
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The congress we invite expert.
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The meeting of expert
we invite very good expert.
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You know, you have a think tank,
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meeting of expert.
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You have a congress
saying per assume where expert,
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religious leader,
and so on are together.
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They share. Then
you have the festival.
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The festival is for
all. It's a mass meeting.
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More you have people in
this meeting, better it is.
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More you have people together
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to say we believe
in religious freedom.
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Thank God for religious freedom.
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And thank our country to
protect religious freedom.
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Then the message is very strong.
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Yeah. And I think it
was explained that way
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that there really can't
be any objection to anybody
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that loves the God given value
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that we share religious freedom
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because this is
only furthering it. Yeah.
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Even if it gives a platform
to someone whose believes
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that I'm greatly troubled by,
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you know, they're
not forcing it on me.
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But it's an open forum
where you can turn that idea
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and I'd say, but
some people that object.
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It's giving us the opportunity
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to speak our values to others
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that wouldn't
otherwise hear it also.
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And also this is
what I said very often
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when people ask the question.
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You know, they see ecumenisms.
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People being joining together
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or sometime being
forced to do that.
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And at the end-- Compromising.
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And at the end to
organize one big church,
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one Christian church,
or one big organization
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where all people
would be together.
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And may be after
tried to force them,
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"What is religious freedom?"
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It's just the opposite. Right.
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Religious freedom is if
you want to join this group,
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you can. If you do not,
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if you don't
want, we defend you.
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We defend your
right to be different.
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We defend your right to be free.
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We defend your
right to be independent.
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You want to join a
church, you have the right.
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You don't, we will protect you.
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You know, it's
just a difference way.
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There is no confusion.
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And it's--you know, it
will be willing to defend
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someone's right to
believe or not believe.
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Something you find objectionable
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even to defend
it with your life.
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That's the great irony. Yeah.
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Something that I find
a pernicious doctrine.
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I will go to the end
degree to defend their right--
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your right to hold that.
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And of course, we
defend the right of people
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to share what they believe.
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It means if you don't
have religious freedom,
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you don't have evangelism.
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You know, I come back
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I was invited in the Philippine.
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And I was in-- I
was the evangelist,
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you know, that is also something
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we have to say
because people believe
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that if you
defend religious freedom,
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you are disconnected.
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No, I want to be
part of evangelization
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or evangelistic campaign
because that is an expression
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of my religious
freedom. Absolutely.
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And when you preach,
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we don't preach
something general.
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We preach what we believe.
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And we preach what we believe.
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And we ask people
if you are interested,
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if you feel that the Holy Spirit
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is working in you, join us.
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But we accept that other
people are doing the same
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because they
have the same freedom.
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No religious
freedom, no evangelism.
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And I was involved in that.
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And that was
very, very pleasant.
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And you know, you
let people to decide.
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At the end, they
have the responsibility
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of their choice. But
you give them a choice.
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Yeah, I agree
with you absolutely.
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And it's my study of the history
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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Religious liberty
is integrally tied up
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with the essence of mission.
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It isn't just something
we believe on this side.
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This is what we're all about.
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Proclaiming what we
believe. Yeah and now--
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Religious
liberty goal, you know,
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I'm gonna give my talk a bit,
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but religious liberty
goes to the initial liberation
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from the power of sin
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that Christ
offered on our behalf.
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And now as free men
representing Christ,
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we shouldn't be bound by
people's ideas are restricted.
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We argue that
they all have the right
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to believe and disbelieve.
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You know, I was in San
Pablo in the Philippines.
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And at the end of the campaign,
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we had 80 baptism and 40 people
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who decided to be baptized.
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But they had still to study
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because they did that
very seriously. That's good.
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You know, the
people who were baptized,
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I received the Bible
study for several months.
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And they don't just arrive
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and it was what we
call a reaping campaign.
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But, you know, I thought
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about look the country
is not really very rich
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and you have a lot
people who have to deal
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to struggle with a daily life.
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They don't have
enough money and so on.
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At the same time, you have also
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things like alcoholism,
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you have many
things which are bad,
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which create problem.
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When you preach the gospel,
you change life of people.
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Jesus has got
changed life of people.
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And they will probably--
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a number of them
will stop drinking.
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And number of them
will start to study.
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They will send their
children to the school.
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It's a revolution.
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It doesn't curl a revolution,
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but it very helpful for
people even if it is religious.
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Then we say that we
have to defend this way
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because it improve the
life of people at the end.
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That is religious freedom.
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Absolutely. I was
gonna say though--
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we can show and maintain
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that religion
improves people a lot.
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But is it
necessary when we're dealing
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with the civil
society or civil government
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to say that religion
will be to the advantage
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of your society.
I don't think so.
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We just need to appeal
that this is a God given right
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that people should be
able to believe and disbelieve.
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It's a side benefit that
it also improves the society.
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Yeah, this is why you know--
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It's not the argument for it.
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That's the
benefit to force them.
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Yeah, I think we are not pushing
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to other Christian
government, but we are pushing,
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praying to other
Christian people in the nation.
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It means you don't necessarily
have a Christian nation,
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but you have
Christian living in a nation.
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And there is
something that we don't normally
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talk about, but I say
it worked out in the world.
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Christian--
since we are Christians
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talking about freedom
to advance Christianity,
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true Christianity that's
the enemy of an unjust state.
00:11:47.83\00:11:51.91
That's the enemy of
an autocratic state.
00:11:51.94\00:11:54.85
Not that it attacks it directly,
00:11:54.88\00:11:56.84
but it will so change society
00:11:56.87\00:11:59.45
that will become unsustainable.
00:11:59.48\00:12:01.31
Yeah, right.
00:12:01.34\00:12:02.71
We--I don't think we
should say much about it,
00:12:02.74\00:12:05.44
but I think
certain leaders see that.
00:12:05.47\00:12:08.34
And that's often why
there is such an antagonism to--
00:12:08.37\00:12:11.84
But, you know, coming back--
00:12:11.87\00:12:13.24
Civil or religious liberty.
00:12:13.27\00:12:14.64
Lincoln, coming
back to the festival,
00:12:14.67\00:12:16.22
I would like to
explain why it's important.
00:12:16.25\00:12:19.15
We need to do that.
00:12:19.18\00:12:20.55
I can see our time running out.
00:12:20.58\00:12:21.95
So let's take a break now.
00:12:21.98\00:12:23.44
And we'll be back shortly
and Dr. Graz will explain
00:12:23.47\00:12:26.34
the real
importance of these festivals
00:12:26.37\00:12:28.57
of religious
liberty that are being held
00:12:28.60\00:12:30.50
all over the world,
not just here or there.
00:12:30.53\00:12:33.38
It's a growing
phenomenon. We'll be right back.
00:12:33.41\00:12:36.69