Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000183B
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00:06 Welcome back to our discussion of secularism
00:09 with guest Dr. John Graz. 00:14 We could tackle this from many points of view, 00:16 but one thing that comes to mind quickly is-- 00:19 about a year ago, a bit over a year ago, 00:21 you had a meeting of experts in Australia. 00:24 Yeah. And I was privileged-- 00:25 At the University of Sydney, 00:26 you can imagine, we were invited-- 00:28 The seat of secular learning, Sydney. 00:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was privileged to be there, 00:33 and it was interesting for me, because I'm an Australian. 00:35 And I've-- but I've been away from 00:37 that country for many years. 00:38 And as I look at my homeland, 00:41 and even as religion is practice there, 00:44 I see that it is pervasively secular, secular. 00:48 Even in a religious context, it's approached 00:52 from a sort of a secular viewpoint. 00:54 In some ways, religion is not all 00:56 encompassing even for a religionist. 00:59 They've divided it into-- we go to church, 01:01 you do this, but their mindset is secular, 01:04 which I don't think is good. 01:06 But certainly, in Australia secularism 01:09 has enabled religious freedom. 01:11 It's not opposed to it, is it? 01:12 Yeah, right. In the first step I should say, 01:15 it's just win of freedom in many ways, 01:18 you know, I think that secular as I said, 01:20 secularism or the secular thought was very well accepted 01:24 by religious freedom, by religious freedom leaders, 01:27 by all those who have been persecuted, 01:29 because they were a minority. 01:31 It means, you know, as religious minority, 01:33 we don't want a religious state, because we know that, 01:37 by history and by human nature, 01:39 that a religious state will transform, you know, 01:43 the life of million of people and will force them 01:47 maybe to go to church. 01:48 Maybe on the social point we will say yes, good, 01:51 they are forced to go to church. 01:52 But look, the result are good. 01:54 Well, they're forced to a narrow religious viewpoint 01:57 that doesn't include variants on that particular faith 02:00 or certainly wouldn't allow other religious expression. 02:04 And you know when you associate 02:05 politics and religion, what happen? 02:07 You know, the politician are very pragmatic people. 02:10 They want to build a strong state. 02:12 They will not pass, you know, alliance with a small church. 02:16 No. They will negotiate or negotiate with a strong church. 02:21 It mean the majority. What about the minorities? 02:25 And when--as you are, we are all human beings. 02:28 If you give privilege to religious leaders, 02:31 maybe some will do, will do well with. 02:34 But some other will use the privilege as it was 02:37 in the past to liquidate their enemies or opponents. 02:41 That's a human being, you know. 02:43 You know, I've not deeply read in communist theory, 02:46 but you know, Karl Marx did pick up 02:50 on the clear fact of history that very often, 02:52 the church was used by the state to increase its power. 02:58 Yeah. And, so we can't, we can't allow religion 03:01 to drift into that model again. 03:03 Uh, uh, the state as you say, they're very pragmatic. 03:08 Pragmatically, if they see that religious people 03:11 are going to prostitute their belief to help the state. 03:14 That's a very sick sort of a-- 03:16 You know, because at the end, it's a question of power. 03:18 I need the power, because I need to have 03:21 more building, more churches, or more institution, 03:24 I need more money, if the State help me. 03:27 But of course, the State say, "Okay, 03:29 we will help you but you have to help us too." 03:32 Then you have a special alliance with people and so on 03:35 and then you have corruption, we see that all the time. 03:37 You know, the church has not been called 03:40 the church to be the right hand of the state. 03:43 And we have some values to respect. 03:47 One of these values is the freedom. 03:49 Nobody should be forced to join a church, 03:54 or to stay in a church, or to believe, or not to believe. 03:57 That's, you know, according to God, 04:00 that's something which is personal, individual. Yeah. 04:05 And every time you have this kind of alliance, 04:08 you have a persecution of minorities. 04:10 And of course, this is why secularists in some way-- 04:14 It's a protection against that alliance. 04:16 Yes, because, you know, the secularists defend, 04:18 or they said to, that they defend human rights. 04:21 Because they say that we are those who came with 04:24 the idea of human rights, which is not really true, 04:27 but you know, let's say that. 04:29 But now we say to them, okay, we agree with you. 04:32 We are in favor of human rights. 04:34 But if you are in favor of human rights, 04:36 you have to protect even religious minorities. 04:39 And when you decide that all religion is bad, 04:42 you are no longer in favor of human rights. 04:45 It means it's easier for us to defend our values 04:50 and the freedom we defend. 04:52 When we talk with people who are secularized, 04:56 people who are secular in the context of secularization, 05:00 then when you talk in the context, 05:02 in the religious context. 05:03 Because when you talk with religious leaders 05:06 who are not in favor of religious freedom, 05:08 they will put in one side the truths, we have the truths, 05:11 we have the right to impose our truths. 05:14 You don't have. You are heretic. You are bad people. 05:17 You are leading people outside of the truth. 05:20 You have to be neutralized or eliminated. 05:23 So I think you've given a very good argument, 05:26 for what in these seminars we really came 05:28 to the conclusion that well, it would be misleading 05:31 for a Christian to say that they are in favor 05:34 of secularism versus spirituality. 05:37 But when we talk about a civil structure, 05:40 generally an enlightened more open secularism 05:44 is a more benign environment for the practice 05:49 of religious freedom, than a more confessional state. 05:53 I mean, that was the story of the Middle Ages, 05:56 persecution and narrow-minded religious expression. 05:59 You know, when religious people are involved in politics, 06:03 and when they change religion into politics, 06:06 they can become very aggressive, very intolerant, 06:09 because they have this idea that we have the truth. 06:12 And, if you're against us, you are from the devil. 06:16 And we don't negotiate with the devil. 06:18 But you know, now they seem, having said that, 06:21 we really, if we are in favor like talking about government 06:26 of a secular moderate government, 06:30 we are not in favor of extreme secular government. 06:34 It means that we are in favor of something 06:37 which is a kind of neutral. 06:39 Well, extreme in the sense of-- On the religious level. 06:42 It tries to chase religion out of civil society. 06:45 That's, you know, that is extreme, that's communism. 06:48 In western society, we are seeing not so much 06:52 with the government, but we're seeing societies 06:54 where religion is, is, there's an antagonism 06:57 toward personal faith and the practice 07:00 of religious churches and so on. 07:02 And of course, even in the United States, 07:03 being very difficult to even build churches sometimes, 07:06 because this society doesn't want religion. 07:09 Yeah. And also, yeah, its happening all the time, 07:12 you know, I heard that some evangelicals leader 07:16 talking about the situation in Europe 07:17 saying that, yes, we have freedom. 07:19 But when you ask to build a church, 07:21 it takes ten years before receiving 07:24 the right to build a new church. 07:26 And of course, the authorities can say that 07:29 you need to have a park lots, 07:31 you need to have that, you need to have that. 07:33 But in fact, they do their best to stop the growing 07:37 of religious organizations or just to have more churches. 07:42 That is, you know, what we can find very often 07:45 behind the idea of secularism. 07:47 It's not just neutral as we would like to be-- 07:50 It's antagonism. But it's, yeah, it's against religion. 07:54 When it is at this level, we have of course, 07:57 to react and we cannot support that. 07:59 Now you mentioned Europe and of course, 08:01 for people in the United States, Europe is sort of 08:04 the example of the real danger of secularism, 08:07 but at least the danger that may come over to these shores. 08:11 But what's happening in Europe with the immigrants from-- 08:15 Muslim immigrants in particular, who bring a radical-- 08:19 well, radical's the wrong word, bring an all encompassing faith, 08:23 where they have to pray five times a day and to wear 08:28 their religious clothing, it's just an in-your-face 08:30 religiosity for a secular society. 08:32 It is just the opposite to what many, 08:35 many secular people believe, that religion is going down 08:38 and down and down and one day it will disappear. 08:40 Because, you know, ten years ago, 08:42 20 years ago in Europe, you had also Muslim, 08:45 you had million Muslim but they did not say anything. 08:48 You know, they were, they accepted to have 08:50 a small mosque, they accepted everything, 08:53 they did not even go to mosque. 08:55 It means, for people, it did not exist. 08:57 And suddenly, you have a revival among the Muslim. 09:02 And now they go to, they go to the mosque. 09:04 You know, a country like France, 09:06 it was interesting, I read these statistics. 09:10 Maybe it should be confirmed, but you know they say 09:13 that 2.9 million of French people go to the church, 09:17 Christian church, on Sunday. 09:19 2.9 % go to the Christian church on Sunday. 09:25 And there are you know, there are 80-70 09:28 or 60% of people say they are Christian. 09:30 Maybe more or less 50-55 say they are Catholics. 09:34 Far less than before, before it was 80-90%. 09:38 They say 3.9% of the French population 09:43 go to the mosque every week. 09:46 It means you have more people going to the mosque 09:50 practicing Islam, than practicing Christianity. 09:53 What does it mean? 09:54 It reveals the state of Christianity in the country. 09:59 It has nothing to do with secularism and so on. 10:03 If you are a good Christian, if you want to defend 10:05 Christian values, you have to go to your church 10:09 or you have to do to say something. 10:10 But if you sit just quietly, if you are sitting 10:14 in your home chair and just looking at--of course, 10:17 of course, secularism or Islam will dominate one day. 10:22 Now there's two reactions that are possible in Europe. 10:24 One we've seen part of where they're trying to 10:27 enforce a radical laicity or secularism. 10:33 We've seen a bit of that. Do you think it's possible that 10:36 we'll see a rush toward religiosity to counter 10:40 this religious--surge that is seen as not European? 10:48 Yeah, you know, what we see in Europe today 10:50 is more and more evangelical churches are really 10:54 full of people from countries like Africa, 10:58 South America, especially Africa. 11:00 And those who come from Africa, 11:02 they don't care about secularism. 11:04 They need to pray God. They need to be together. 11:08 They need to build a church. 11:09 And even if they have problem, they have problem, 11:11 they find another way. 11:13 But, you know, that's also a new challenge 11:15 for secularism to see that oh my, these people, 11:18 they come to the light and they don't follow the light. 11:21 They want to go to their church. 11:23 That's something, I think you cannot really destroy religion. 11:27 All those who try, you know, that's a big mistake. 11:29 And at the end of the day, religion is a personal thing, 11:32 and the state is best kept out of it. 11:35 And I think God's spirit will move on people as it always has. 11:38 Yeah, this is what I think that the best way to answer 11:41 the challenge of secularism is to be a better Christians. 11:44 To live the Christian values everyd ay, 11:47 and to share with that. 11:49 And in this society also, to defend 11:51 and to promote the Christian values. This is our mission. 11:54 We should not be afraid about secularism. 11:58 Secularism definitely presents a challenge. 12:02 In the words of the poet Matthew Arnold, who said that 12:06 "The sea of faith was once at the full, 12:10 but now I only hear its melancholy retreating roar." 12:14 We can see the same in the modern world. 12:17 Secularism is in some ways 12:19 driving faith out of public life. 12:21 But there's a great irony as we look at 12:24 the history of religious liberty, 12:25 that particularly in the western world, 12:28 it's been the move towards secularism that's enabled 12:31 the logic that's underpinned 12:33 the defense of religious freedom. 12:36 As we've discussed so often, a healthy secular society 12:40 can be an enabling environment, indeed 12:43 a protective environment for religious freedom. 12:46 What we do not want is a cynical secularism, 12:50 an opposition to faith, that is set to drive religion 12:55 and faith and the practice of religion out of existence. 12:59 That is a form of secularism that too is on the rise. 13:03 We need to fight against that. 13:04 We need to make sure that we always protect 13:07 our faith prerogative. 13:12 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17