Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000183A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program bringing you news, views, and discussion, 00:28 and information that you need relating to religious liberty. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:35 And my guest on the program 00:37 is Dr. John Graz, world director of religious liberty 00:41 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, welcome. 00:43 Always a pleasure to be with you, Lincoln. 00:46 We've spoken about many things in the past, conferences, 00:49 and congresses, and challenges 00:51 in different countries to religious liberty. 00:53 But there's one topic 00:55 that we don't talk too much about but it's a big issue 00:58 in the western world, "Secularism." 01:02 Yeah, secularism is a big issue 01:03 and especially in countries like the U.S. 01:06 where you have still-- you know a kind of a war 01:10 between religious people or religion and the secular 01:14 Well, they sometimes they call it the culture war. 01:15 Yeah, the cultural war. 01:17 Yes, it's religion and sometimes characterizes anti-religion. 01:22 Yeah, right. And of course in Europe, 01:24 I should say that in Europe the war has been won by secular. 01:28 And religious people are really, they lost their world 01:32 may be not totally they try to come back. 01:35 But it's clear that for many people 01:37 and especially those who are militant, 01:40 a good religion is a dead religion. 01:42 It means if you speak like them, 01:45 you are well accepted, you're well invited. 01:47 But if you try to show that the Bible, 01:50 you know, if you talk about creation, you are crazy, 01:52 just a crazy, ignorant, going back to the middle age. 01:56 Well, it's a cultural dissonance, isn't it? 01:57 Yeah. Religion doesn't really 01:59 naturally exist in that sort of a culture. 02:01 You're against science. 02:02 You know they cannot imagine that you can believe 02:04 in the Bible and be in favor of science. 02:09 If you believe in the Bible, if you believe in creation, 02:12 you are just totally out and we cannot hope 02:16 nothing, anything about you. 02:18 I heard a comment the other day and it's interesting 02:21 it's not been proven yet but someone says that science 02:23 is just a study of dead religions. 02:26 Because what are scientific facts now, 02:29 according to this thinking, 02:30 were the superstitions of ancient religion. 02:32 But you know things can change. 02:33 Even in Europe, where now, you know, the secular, 02:37 those who are defending the secularism 02:39 and as a philosophy and secular humanistic 02:42 are very surprised to see that. 02:45 May be, you know, among the Christian, 02:47 the influence of secularism is very strong. 02:50 But now they have to face another religion like Islam. 02:54 And the Muslim don't care, you know? 02:57 They go to the mosque. 02:59 If the mosque is too small, they just pray in the street 03:04 and the police has to come in to protect them. 03:07 And they did not expect that. 03:09 In their mind, you know, 03:11 they believe that you will have less and less religion. 03:14 And this is why most of the leaders 03:16 in the European countries and in many countries has been trained 03:21 with the idea that religion is the past. 03:25 Now, you know you have more important thing, 03:28 don't take time about religion. 03:31 But now they have to face problems with religion. 03:34 And I think that's why there's this now a growing dialogue 03:38 about what we do with secularism vis-A -vis religion. 03:41 In fact, they did not know how to deal, you know? 03:43 We saw their reaction, especially, in Europe 03:45 when it came to deal with the sect 03:48 what they called sect cult 03:50 because for them that was totally unexpected 03:53 how this kind of people can come back, 03:56 we thought that the religion was dead. 03:57 And now you have a multitude of new religion. 03:59 We have to do something, they are probably dangerous. 04:02 Because they cannot be normal. 04:06 These people who believe are dangerous 04:08 and we started to make, to publish a list of sect, 04:13 occult and so on to try to marginalize 04:16 and neutralize these new religions. 04:19 Yes, secularism is--can be very antagonistic. 04:24 But when I think back on history, in some ways 04:26 I could lay the blame for western secularism-- Yeah. 04:30 In some ways on the reformation. 04:32 It laid the way for secular-- separating religion and society. 04:36 Also on the access of religions. 04:38 You know, we should not forget that during 04:40 more than 1,500 years, you know, the religion was dominant 04:45 and everything has to go through the religious authorities. 04:49 The Lord, the science and so on. 04:51 And it was so heavy that people had no freedom. 04:54 And of course, you know, they assimilate 04:57 any kind of religion with the absence of freedom, 05:01 with the anti-progress, evolution and so on. 05:05 It means you are religious, you are not in favor of justice, 05:10 in favor of progress. 05:12 But you know a good image when I grew up in my village 05:16 and that's--you know the church was in the center. 05:20 Switzerland? No, it was close 05:22 to the Swiss border but it was in France. 05:24 And the church was in the center. 05:27 It was built on the hill and all the life of people-- 05:31 Centered around there. 05:33 Followed, you know, the ring of the bell. 05:35 In the morning at 10:00 you have the bell 05:38 and it means that now it's time to pray. 05:41 In the afternoon, time to pray. 05:43 At noon, at 6 A.M, at 6 P.M. 05:48 And when, you know, you had a problem, the ring, 05:51 the ring was the bell rang in such a way that, 05:54 you know, someone is dead. 05:56 Or there is a fire somewhere 05:59 or may be there is a national alarm or a war and so on. 06:03 It meant the church was really in the center. 06:06 That was-- That's not so anymore. 06:08 That was our tutor and our civilization 06:10 for hundred and hundred, cent years. 06:13 I mean several centuries 06:15 but now, you know, the church is no longer in the center. 06:17 And I saw, I remember the shift between religions, 06:22 religious society and secularism. 06:25 You know, at this time, you know, when I was a kid, 06:28 the priest said, you know, election on Sunday 06:31 or next week you will have election. 06:33 And he really prepare people to make a good vote, 06:37 you know, to vote in a right way. 06:39 Then after he said that, you know, 06:41 there is--be a festivity or festival in a city, 06:45 as a Christian you should not go, you should stay here. 06:49 And you know, you did not have a lot 06:50 of transportation like today. 06:53 It means to go to the city even it was just a few miles, 06:58 you needed to organize and people don't follow, 07:01 you know, the advice of the priest. 07:02 But now, you know, they don't care, they don't care. 07:05 You had on Sunday, I remember, on Sunday in my village, 07:09 you have the first mass, you know, in the church 07:12 at 8:00 and the second at 10:00. 07:15 Then after in the afternoon 07:17 at 2:00 or 2:00 or 3:00, you have vesper. 07:19 Then after at 6:00 or 7:00, 07:22 you have the end of the Sunday prayer. 07:26 It means at least on Sunday, you have four possibilities 07:30 and most of the people follow that to go to church. 07:33 What it's about now, you know? 07:35 What's happening now? Well, we've drifted away. 07:37 People don't go to church. 07:38 The churches are almost empty. 07:40 That is secularism. 07:43 But secularism, in my--by my observation, 07:47 is really not the one thing. 07:49 Like in the United States, there's been some challenges 07:52 against religion in government 07:54 by the "Freedom From Religion Foundation" for example. Yeah. 07:57 Very secular--not just secular, a radically secular organization 08:02 that does not want religion in society at all. At all. 08:04 Wants to drive it out. Yeah. 08:06 And yet on the other side, 08:09 the Seventh-day Adventist, our history 08:10 is the separation of Church and the State, yeah. 08:13 Well, we want, in that sense, a secular mindset 08:16 where as far as civil governance, we want them, 08:21 you know, sharp cleaver between the two Separation, yeah. 08:23 Yes, in that context a secular mindset 08:27 in governance is our friend, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. 08:30 And I have to also to say, you know, 08:31 I don't want to promote or to give the impression 08:34 that when the society was religious that was the best, 08:38 that was almost heaven. 08:39 Because it was not the case. 08:42 It was oppressive. You know, as long it was good, 08:44 as long as you were part of the majority religion 08:46 but if you were, if you decided to follow another, 08:50 well, you were persecuted. 08:51 And your life was not very easy. 08:54 It means we should not forget that. 08:55 And it means when the secularists 08:59 came and increase, 09:01 when you had more and more secular government, 09:04 many members of religious minorities supported. 09:08 They agree with that. 09:09 They say that the government should be neutral 09:12 in term of religion and protect the right of everyone 09:16 to live or to choose its religion. 09:19 That was really a kind of welcome for secularism. 09:24 But you know when secularism-- secularists 09:27 is becoming militants and become against-- 09:30 Then it's anti-religious, yeah. 09:31 Anti religious, against religion 09:33 and we have to say no, we cannot follow that. 09:36 And of course the most militantly secular environment 09:40 was the communist system which is largely collapsed. 09:44 It was imposed, you know, an atheist, it mean they changed 09:47 they put an order instead to have a religion, 09:50 they put an ideology and it was atheistic and they forced people 09:56 to be--to follow this way. 09:57 It means you have no choice at all. 09:59 And of course we cannot support this kind of-- 10:01 It's not a form of secularism that anyone but-- 10:04 But the other thing also, you know, when people say 10:06 we are living in a secular society, still we have freedom 10:10 in most of the western countries. 10:12 But we say that, you know, nobody go to church 10:15 and we have a very pessimistic view but we should also accept 10:19 the idea that the secularism give a real, real photo, 10:26 I should say, of the state of religion. 10:29 It means nobody force you not to go to church. Right. 10:33 Why are you not going to church? 10:35 Because you decide that it's better to stay home 10:37 and to watch a movie or go through the city. 10:38 That's an interesting point. 10:40 May be people aren't any less religious than they once were. 10:44 Absolutely. They're just not forced to follow the forms. 10:46 Yeah, exactly, you know, this is what I believe too, you know? 10:49 Before you were almost forced even if you had the kind 10:53 of freedom to go to church because everyone 10:55 used to go to church and if you are not in church, people 10:58 say hey, he is not in church, he is not going to church. 11:00 His children have not been baptized, 11:03 oh my--he has--but sometime 11:05 it has nothing to do if really a real religion. 11:08 It was just a tradition. 11:10 I know, they say you are no longer forced 11:12 to go to church, okay, we don't go. 11:14 What does it mean about the religion of people? 11:17 It mean that their religion was not really very strong 11:21 or is not really very strong. 11:24 And former religion is not as strong as some people would wish 11:28 but it's very interesting in the United States 11:29 and most other western countries. 11:31 When surveys are taken, the majority of people 11:34 believe in the basic parameters, they believe in God, 11:37 they believe in angels, they believe in miracles and so on. 11:40 So there's a residual spirituality in society even 11:43 in this--in a more secular environment. 11:47 And I think as people that believe in the Bible 11:51 and God, Seventh-day Adventist, 11:52 we can see this is as a ready field to evangelize. 11:57 It's not a built in inhibition 11:59 in a neutrally secular society to religion. This is right. 12:03 This is radically secular, once where there's antagonism, 12:06 that's what we have to be careful. 12:08 Yeah, there are some positive aspect for people like us, 12:11 you know, people member of a minority, religious minority 12:15 who needs to have their right protected, 12:19 there some positive aspect in the secular society. 12:22 But when the secular society become, you know, 12:25 extreme in sharing secularism, we have--of course we have-- 12:30 That's a competing ideology. 12:31 We have to stand again. 12:33 That's the closest to what some religions in the U.S. 12:37 have tried to manufacture 12:38 by saying that it's another religion. 12:40 It's not really but it can work against 12:43 as a competing system if we're not careful. 12:45 We will be back after a short break to continue 12:48 with this discussion about secularism 12:50 and the challenge to religious freedom. |
Revised 2014-12-17