Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program bringing
you news, views, and discussion,
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and information that you need
relating to religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the program
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is Dr. John Graz, world
director of religious liberty
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for the Seventh-day
Adventist Church, welcome.
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Always a pleasure to
be with you, Lincoln.
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We've spoken about many
things in the past, conferences,
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and congresses, and challenges
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in different
countries to religious liberty.
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But there's one topic
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that we don't talk too
much about but it's a big issue
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in the western
world, "Secularism."
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Yeah, secularism is a big issue
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and especially in
countries like the U.S.
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where you have still--
you know a kind of a war
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between religious people
or religion and the secular
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Well, they sometimes
they call it the culture war.
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Yeah, the cultural war.
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Yes, it's religion and sometimes
characterizes anti-religion.
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Yeah, right. And
of course in Europe,
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I should say that in Europe
the war has been won by secular.
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And religious people are
really, they lost their world
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may be not totally
they try to come back.
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But it's clear
that for many people
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and especially
those who are militant,
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a good religion
is a dead religion.
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It means if you speak like them,
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you are well
accepted, you're well invited.
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But if you try to
show that the Bible,
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you know, if you talk
about creation, you are crazy,
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just a crazy, ignorant,
going back to the middle age.
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Well, it's a
cultural dissonance, isn't it?
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Yeah. Religion doesn't really
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naturally exist in
that sort of a culture.
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You're against science.
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You know they cannot
imagine that you can believe
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in the Bible and be
in favor of science.
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If you believe in the Bible,
if you believe in creation,
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you are just totally
out and we cannot hope
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nothing, anything about you.
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I heard a comment the
other day and it's interesting
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it's not been proven yet
but someone says that science
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is just a study
of dead religions.
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Because what are
scientific facts now,
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according to this thinking,
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were the superstitions
of ancient religion.
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But you know things can change.
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Even in Europe, where
now, you know, the secular,
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those who are
defending the secularism
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and as a philosophy
and secular humanistic
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are very surprised to see that.
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May be, you know,
among the Christian,
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the influence of
secularism is very strong.
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But now they have to face
another religion like Islam.
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And the Muslim
don't care, you know?
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They go to the mosque.
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If the mosque is too small,
they just pray in the street
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and the police has to
come in to protect them.
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And they did not expect that.
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In their mind, you know,
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they believe that you will
have less and less religion.
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And this is why
most of the leaders
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in the European countries and in
many countries has been trained
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with the idea that
religion is the past.
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Now, you know you
have more important thing,
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don't take time about religion.
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But now they have to
face problems with religion.
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And I think that's why there's
this now a growing dialogue
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about what we do with
secularism vis-A -vis religion.
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In fact, they did not
know how to deal, you know?
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We saw their
reaction, especially, in Europe
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when it came to
deal with the sect
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what they called sect cult
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because for them that
was totally unexpected
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how this kind of
people can come back,
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we thought that
the religion was dead.
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And now you have a
multitude of new religion.
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We have to do something,
they are probably dangerous.
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Because they cannot be normal.
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These people who
believe are dangerous
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and we started to make,
to publish a list of sect,
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occult and so on
to try to marginalize
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and neutralize
these new religions.
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Yes, secularism
is--can be very antagonistic.
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But when I think back
on history, in some ways
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I could lay the blame for
western secularism-- Yeah.
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In some ways on the reformation.
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It laid the way for secular--
separating religion and society.
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Also on the access of religions.
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You know, we should
not forget that during
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more than 1,500 years, you
know, the religion was dominant
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and everything has to go through
the religious authorities.
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The Lord, the science and so on.
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And it was so heavy
that people had no freedom.
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And of course, you
know, they assimilate
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any kind of religion
with the absence of freedom,
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with the anti-progress,
evolution and so on.
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It means you are religious,
you are not in favor of justice,
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in favor of progress.
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But you know a good image
when I grew up in my village
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and that's--you know the
church was in the center.
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Switzerland? No, it was close
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to the Swiss border
but it was in France.
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And the church
was in the center.
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It was built on the hill
and all the life of people--
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Centered around there.
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Followed, you know,
the ring of the bell.
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In the morning at
10:00 you have the bell
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and it means that
now it's time to pray.
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In the afternoon, time to pray.
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At noon, at 6 A.M, at 6 P.M.
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And when, you know, you
had a problem, the ring,
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the ring was the bell
rang in such a way that,
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you know, someone is dead.
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Or there is a fire somewhere
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or may be there is a national
alarm or a war and so on.
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It meant the church
was really in the center.
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That was--
That's not so anymore.
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That was our tutor
and our civilization
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for hundred and
hundred, cent years.
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I mean several centuries
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but now, you know, the church
is no longer in the center.
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And I saw, I remember
the shift between religions,
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religious
society and secularism.
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You know, at this time,
you know, when I was a kid,
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the priest said, you
know, election on Sunday
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or next week you
will have election.
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And he really prepare
people to make a good vote,
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you know, to
vote in a right way.
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Then after he
said that, you know,
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there is--be a
festivity or festival in a city,
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as a Christian you should
not go, you should stay here.
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And you know, you
did not have a lot
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of transportation like today.
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It means to go to the city
even it was just a few miles,
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you needed to organize
and people don't follow,
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you know, the
advice of the priest.
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But now, you know, they
don't care, they don't care.
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You had on Sunday, I remember,
on Sunday in my village,
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you have the first
mass, you know, in the church
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at 8:00 and the second at 10:00.
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Then after in the afternoon
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at 2:00 or 2:00 or
3:00, you have vesper.
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Then after at 6:00 or 7:00,
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you have the end
of the Sunday prayer.
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It means at least on Sunday,
you have four possibilities
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and most of the people
follow that to go to church.
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What it's about now, you know?
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What's happening now?
Well, we've drifted away.
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People don't go to church.
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The churches are almost empty.
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That is secularism.
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But secularism, in
my--by my observation,
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is really not the one thing.
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Like in the United States,
there's been some challenges
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against religion in government
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by the "Freedom From Religion
Foundation" for example. Yeah.
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Very secular--not just secular,
a radically secular organization
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that does not want religion
in society at all. At all.
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Wants to drive it out. Yeah.
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And yet on the other side,
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the Seventh-day
Adventist, our history
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is the separation of
Church and the State, yeah.
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Well, we want, in that
sense, a secular mindset
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where as far as civil
governance, we want them,
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you know, sharp cleaver between
the two Separation, yeah.
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Yes, in that
context a secular mindset
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in governance is our
friend, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.
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And I have to
also to say, you know,
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I don't want to promote
or to give the impression
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that when the society was
religious that was the best,
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that was almost heaven.
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Because it was not the case.
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It was oppressive. You
know, as long it was good,
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as long as you were
part of the majority religion
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but if you were, if you
decided to follow another,
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well, you were persecuted.
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And your life was not very easy.
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It means we
should not forget that.
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And it means
when the secularists
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came and increase,
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when you had more and
more secular government,
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many members of
religious minorities supported.
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They agree with that.
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They say that the
government should be neutral
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in term of religion and
protect the right of everyone
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to live or to
choose its religion.
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That was really a kind
of welcome for secularism.
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But you know when
secularism-- secularists
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is becoming
militants and become against--
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Then it's anti-religious, yeah.
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Anti religious, against religion
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and we have to say
no, we cannot follow that.
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And of course the most
militantly secular environment
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was the communist system
which is largely collapsed.
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It was imposed, you know, an
atheist, it mean they changed
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they put an order
instead to have a religion,
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they put an ideology and it was
atheistic and they forced people
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to be--to follow this way.
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It means you
have no choice at all.
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And of course we
cannot support this kind of--
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It's not a form of
secularism that anyone but--
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But the other thing
also, you know, when people say
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we are living in a secular
society, still we have freedom
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in most of the
western countries.
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But we say that, you
know, nobody go to church
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and we have a very pessimistic
view but we should also accept
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the idea that the secularism
give a real, real photo,
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I should say, of
the state of religion.
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It means nobody force you
not to go to church. Right.
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Why are you not going to church?
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Because you decide that
it's better to stay home
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and to watch a movie
or go through the city.
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That's an interesting point.
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May be people aren't any less
religious than they once were.
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Absolutely. They're just
not forced to follow the forms.
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Yeah, exactly, you know, this
is what I believe too, you know?
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Before you were almost
forced even if you had the kind
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of freedom to go to
church because everyone
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used to go to church and if
you are not in church, people
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say hey, he is not in church,
he is not going to church.
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His children have
not been baptized,
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oh my--he has--but sometime
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it has nothing to do
if really a real religion.
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It was just a tradition.
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I know, they say
you are no longer forced
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to go to church,
okay, we don't go.
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What does it mean
about the religion of people?
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It mean that their religion
was not really very strong
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or is not really very strong.
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And former religion is not as
strong as some people would wish
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but it's very
interesting in the United States
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and most other
western countries.
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When surveys are
taken, the majority of people
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believe in the basic
parameters, they believe in God,
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they believe in angels, they
believe in miracles and so on.
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So there's a residual
spirituality in society even
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in this--in a more
secular environment.
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And I think as people
that believe in the Bible
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and God, Seventh-day Adventist,
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we can see this is as a
ready field to evangelize.
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It's not a built in inhibition
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in a neutrally secular society
to religion. This is right.
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This is radically secular,
once where there's antagonism,
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that's what we
have to be careful.
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Yeah, there are some positive
aspect for people like us,
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you know, people member of
a minority, religious minority
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who needs to have
their right protected,
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there some positive
aspect in the secular society.
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But when the secular
society become, you know,
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extreme in sharing secularism,
we have--of course we have--
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That's a competing ideology.
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We have to stand again.
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That's the closest to
what some religions in the U.S.
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have tried to manufacture
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by saying that
it's another religion.
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It's not really
but it can work against
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as a competing
system if we're not careful.
00:12:43.47\00:12:45.63
We will be back after
a short break to continue
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with this
discussion about secularism
00:12:48.28\00:12:50.44
and the challenge
to religious freedom.
00:12:50.47\00:12:52.14