Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Clifford Goldstein
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000181B
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00:06 Welcome back to The Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break I was talking with guest, 00:09 Clifford Goldstein about headlines. 00:11 We've taken another random 00:13 but it was the yesterday's paper, 00:15 the last paper that I picked up before coming to this program. 00:17 And they were three, at least three direct delusions to things 00:21 that concern religious liberty. 00:24 One of them that's practically in every paper at the time 00:27 is debate about The Health Care, ObamaCare-- 00:30 Yeah, it's been quite, yeah. 00:32 The--so called restriction on Religious Liberty 00:35 that would require Catholic Church 00:37 and indeed anyone else to provide contraception 00:40 is part of the--well they don't provided it, 00:42 they provide coverage for it. Sure, sure. 00:44 So again that's sort of like refusing to pay your tax 00:47 because the government may be doing something, 00:49 somewhere where you don't agree with. 00:51 You know, some point it becomes so indirect that, 00:54 you know, how can you stop something like that? 00:56 Yeah, well, as I said, it just comes through 00:58 the whole question of when you mix, 01:02 that's why we have separation of Church and State 01:05 as much as possible, but in some cases you just can't do it. 01:08 You just can't do it. 01:09 Religion and politics inevitably are going to crash, 01:12 clash or mingle and in certain cases you gonna have clashes 01:16 and how to work your way through, 01:18 well that's been the million dollar question 01:19 since the founding of the Republic. 01:21 We wanted it different. 01:22 We wanted a different model from what the world that had. 01:26 We'd seen how bad that worked and our framers were, 01:29 you know, I really do. 01:31 I thought about it over the years. 01:32 When you think, even in countries today where you-- 01:38 they even don't want you to change your religion 01:41 and all we have these founders hundreds of years ago 01:45 with this radical idea of keeping Church and State, 01:49 keeping them separate. 01:51 You know, I don't think we today 01:52 because we're so used to it. 01:54 We're so used to the idea, 01:55 but we realize how radical emotion that was. 01:57 Well, it was radical in my hobby horse. 01:59 I think it was very radical 02:01 because in their own country most of them were Englishmen. 02:03 I mean modern day United States 02:05 is drawn from most of the known world, 02:09 but not in pre-revolutionary times, 02:12 just up to the American Revolution 02:15 and only 100 years before they had an English Civil war, 02:19 religious civil war and the John Bunyans' 02:23 and others have been imprisoned as dissidents. 02:25 They were not tolerant of religious divergence-- 02:27 No, no, no. In the-- 02:29 And in the colonies as well they weren't. 02:31 Of course not. These states they had established churches 02:33 and persecution and the hangings of Quakers. 02:36 Yeah, yeah. And I think that whatever reason, 02:39 for some reason these men 02:42 who had some very big blind spots in a lot of areas 02:45 as we know particularly on the slavery issue 02:48 how they were able to come up with this idea 02:53 of as much as possible keeping, 02:56 you know, religious views apart, 02:58 though again we have to be careful 02:59 not to read our perspective back in. 03:03 They were totally content to let the states do 03:05 what they wanted with religions. So I guess if you-- 03:07 I think as much as you need to, I'll throw in hearsay. 03:10 It was expediency to get to a Federal government. 03:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah, but if they-- 03:14 yeah of course, well many ways so, 03:16 but if the state wanted to throw you in jail 03:18 because of your religious views 03:20 I guess for you it didn't matter 03:22 whether it was the Federal Government or the state. 03:24 But I think there was the idea in their mind 03:27 because a number of states had disestablished churches. 03:30 It was their idea that eventually 03:34 this is what they're gonna-- this is where it was gonna go, 03:36 but they can only go so far. 03:37 With that wildcard that I think we sometimes dismiss 03:40 was that there was a great awakening. Sure. 03:43 Only about twenty five years before the revolution. 03:46 And I think that it brought less, I mean, 03:50 it moved them away the idea of established 03:53 churches to personal spirituality. 03:55 Sure, yeah, that's very important point, yeah. 03:57 So I think that they were open to the idea 04:00 of getting away from the old norms. 04:01 Question still was a battle? 04:02 And you feed that in with political expediency 04:04 where we get-- there'll be less conflicts 04:06 so that came together. Of course that was, 04:08 they had a battle then look here we are 200 some years later 04:10 and there are still people who don't like it. Absolutely. 04:12 There are still people who don't like it. 04:13 So they really were miles, miles ahead out of that. 04:15 People that handle stakes and all of the rest-- 04:16 And we could be very-very thankful for that, 04:19 that how well they did and what they came up with. 04:22 But this healthcare debate is incredibly contentious 04:24 and it's been interesting. 04:25 I know you listen to Rush Limbaugh for example. 04:27 Sure. And you know, 04:29 the hyperbole that he indulged in to demean young, 04:33 one young man-- Well, at the same time if you-- 04:35 who in a secular level objected to being deprived 04:37 that this healthcare provision. 04:40 Well I listened to it, I listened to it, 04:42 and if you would've listened to the woman, 04:46 I mean Rush was over the top. 04:47 He knows he was over the top, he apologized. 04:49 Okay, I don't know what more 04:50 they want to take a pound of flesh from the man. 04:52 I mean he apologized. 04:53 He said he did wrong but-- and he was. He was over the top. 04:56 But if you would've listened to that woman, 04:58 I mean, I remembered he played the tape 05:01 and I don't want to get into the debate. 05:02 But the woman gets on there and says, 05:03 "when I walked around the campus at Georgetown Law School 05:08 and I can look in the faces of these women 05:11 and I could see the straw look on their faces 05:14 because they can't buy birthday chocolates. 05:16 I was like, come on, I mean Rush stopped the tape. 05:19 I mean I listened to this 05:20 and I was appalled how ridiculous it is. 05:23 So Rush overplayed his hand. He overdid it. 05:26 But again it brings up the issue. 05:28 But may be he shared his age 05:33 and ignored a generation of reality that hooking up 05:37 and grouched it as casual relationships 05:39 at a whole different deal then. 05:40 Rush made a mistake too. 05:41 He says these people are so promiscuous 05:43 as they can't afford-- I think in a way he is right, 05:45 but the very bad way to say it. 05:46 No, no, he wasn't because he missed the point. 05:48 Birth--if you're getting birth control pills-- 05:50 It's not expensive. It doesn't matter whether you-- 05:54 you have relations once a day, 05:55 three times a day or once a month, it's the same. 05:58 So Rush went over the top, Rush went over the top 06:00 but again he was responding to this woman 06:04 who really wasn't activist. 06:05 She wasn't this innocent little girl who got caught in. 06:07 Many of the public spokes people 06:09 in the favor of issue that's what it is. 06:10 Yeah, that was so funny too when he said, 06:12 well may be she should fight out what else she needs Telepolis 06:15 and read what else she wants 06:16 to so that they could buy it for her as well. 06:18 But the point is that it does bring up, 06:19 it's a contentious issue because you're bringing up sex. 06:22 You're bringing up religion. You're bringing up politics. 06:24 You're bringing money. You're bringing up, 06:26 you know, the healthcare bill. 06:27 Well, it might all be a move point to Supreme Court. 06:30 You know, was gonna release there. 06:32 I think they probably already pretty much decided on it. 06:34 It takes some more few months to release. 06:36 And yes, it's gonna be politically chaotic 06:39 if they turn it down. 06:42 They've said that this is probably 06:43 the biggest supreme U.S. Supreme Court case 06:47 since may be Roe v. Wade Brown vs. 06:49 the Board of Education, because, 06:51 see in many ways it's really not an issue about healthcare. 06:57 It's really the bigger issue 06:59 is really what is the range of Federal Government? 07:03 How far and that can have some 07:05 big implications for religious liberty. 07:06 Yeah, I think the Supreme Court again, 07:08 I usually defend them, I think they're onto a good thing 07:10 if they limit the centralized power of the federal government. 07:13 We're way beyond what these framers and-- 07:17 Of course the country, you know, I remember too. 07:18 We are beyond it, but you got to remember it, 07:20 Lincoln, I said this to when America-- 07:22 when they wrote the constitution the U.S. was what? 07:26 Was it 3 million or 13, 3 or 13, states? 07:29 Thirteen states, but I think only 3 or 4 million. 07:31 Three million a lot of, you know, 07:33 white Anglo-Saxon protestant, you know, 07:35 people living on a narrow strip of land on the east coast. 07:39 It was a much compared to the vast-- 07:41 I couldn't have imagined the country 07:43 of this size and perplexity. Yeah, can even my good. 07:44 What do they know about emails? 07:47 What do they know about you know electronic bugging? 07:50 What do they know about so many of these strengths? 07:51 We're into a world of complexity they couldn't have imagined. 07:54 Yes, so yes. So to hold ourselves 07:56 to what they originally intended at that time 07:58 I think is a quite a mistake. 08:00 At least to jump into the middle of something else 08:03 on the Treaty of Tripoli back in those early days, 08:05 they had the foresight to say that this is a country 08:08 that's not founded upon religion 08:10 and it's for all including the-- what they use the word? 08:13 Musulman. Musulman, yeah. 08:15 Funny word for the Muslims. Yeah. 08:17 Oh yeah, that's a brilliant idea 08:19 and we reap the benefits of it today. 08:22 But as I said the country's got 08:23 much more complicated much more complex 08:26 and so the intertwining of Church and State. 08:29 The intertwining is much of it's, it's-- 08:32 It's happening. Frequently entwined 08:35 and I think the healthcare debate over the contraception 08:37 and the Catholic Church is a prime example of how, 08:41 of how entwined this has become 08:44 and is going to remain regardless 08:45 of what they do with Osama care. 08:47 Whether they throw the whole the thing out 08:49 or whether they throw out the mandate. 08:50 Absolutely, I know the argument went that way. 08:53 But all of this argument 08:56 and the unavoidable entanglements 08:58 and of course at same time 09:00 as that rise of politically activists, 09:03 Christians of this country, it begs the question 09:06 or the concern, is there a danger 09:10 that we might head in our own way in this part of the world 09:14 where we see some of these Islamic countries 09:17 where religion that has a hold on societal attitudes 09:21 then uses the power of law to-- 09:24 Well, of course, I mean well that's--I think that's-- 09:26 It's always been a danger what I mean is, 09:28 it's happening to us and we should look there 09:30 as an object lesson to where it ends up. 09:32 Yeah, well, I think the framers knew that's where it was. 09:34 It's really moving that direction. 09:35 And they moved away from it, but you know overtime 09:38 I still I think it depends on what happens. 09:40 We have another major terrorist attack-- 09:42 a great economic collapse, I mean who knows 09:45 what the future hold but there is this natural tendency. 09:47 Well, I would put that good money on one or both of those. 09:50 Yeah, yeah. At some point, 09:51 hopefully not tomorrow but-- Yeah, yes, yeah. 09:53 But we are in a dynamic world situation 09:56 where the global economy is not mended to itself 09:59 and structurally it will collapse again. 10:02 We have many terrorists with leaderless in case of Al-Qaeda 10:06 but something will happen. 10:08 So I think we are stair-stepping towards, 10:10 at least more in that direction, 10:11 and we need to as a society 10:14 and through legal mechanism hold back 10:16 from that if it doesn't end well. 10:18 Well, great empires, none of them lasts forever. 10:20 No, and that's-- None historically, 10:22 none of them lasts forever. Sobering, sobering realization. 10:24 And America, my goodness, has never been, 10:27 of course there's never been anything like it 10:28 because the world has never been the way the world is now, 10:32 but, yeah, we have a more tenuous 10:35 hold on our freedoms than we realize. 10:38 Absolutely, that's the impression, 10:39 the takeaway I get from dealing with religious liberty. 10:42 In quite a few years now things are not bad at any given time, 10:46 but I realize that it's inflexed 10:49 and it could disappear quite quickly. 10:50 Yeah, yeah, and we don't realize. 10:51 A lot of things happen very gradually, 10:54 very gradually to us and you know-- 10:56 the whole thing with the frog if you boil the water slowly. 10:59 Yeah, wonderful example, but the other example 11:01 I used in conjunction with that the Jews in Europe, 11:04 with Mein Kampf out in printed around thinking, 11:07 well it might not get worse, step by step and in the end 11:10 they are herding their fellows into the governance. Yeah, yeah. 11:13 Yeah, I think it's a good lesson you can't take it. 11:17 You got to fight for your freedoms. 11:19 You can't let your, what is it, what is the saying, 11:21 "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." 11:24 So, sure we've enjoyed a lot of religious freedom 11:28 in this country and hope we can enjoy it for a while, 11:30 but if the past is any precursor to the future 11:33 it's probably not going to last. 11:39 Daniel writing in the Old Testament 11:41 made a comment that certainly relates to our day. 11:44 He said, "Knowledge shall be increased 11:47 and men shall run to and fro." 11:50 Reading the daily newspaper 11:51 is certainly a reminder of an explosion of knowledge 11:55 and information that flips 11:57 from one side of the globe to the other or from pole to pole. 12:02 And something that happens in the far corner 12:05 of a modern world is quickly known in other places. 12:09 But it's amazing to me as I read the newspaper 12:11 how often those headlines, 12:14 those items of importance relate 12:16 to religious freedom to religious liberty. 12:20 I would encourage you as you read 12:22 your newspapers you watch your news, 12:24 as you hear other people repeat items of concern in society, 12:28 to be sensitive to religious liberty to events 12:32 that could negatively impacted, 12:34 and indeed for opportunities to spread the good news 12:38 even in the time of exploding bad news 12:40 that religious freedom is our best way forward to know God 12:45 and that separation of Church and State very much enables 12:49 that quest to know and to worship the divine being. 12:55 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17