Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
bringing you up-to-date
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news, views, and
information and discussion
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on religious liberty
events in the United States
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and around the world
bringing you confirmation
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that religious liberty is still
a most important principle.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the
program is Clifford Goldstein,
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previous editor of
Liberty but at the moment
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for the last 13-14 years you've
been Sabbath school editor
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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of the Bible lesson courses that
go out to all the membership,
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and as we said
on another program,
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we pointed out-- this puts you
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in the gun side's
of many, many people.
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Everybody has an
opinion on the doctrine
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and Bible study of the Church.
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You've done a
few programs with me,
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but not till now have you done
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what I have done
regularly with Liberty.
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You grab a paper and
this is actually yesterday's
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but I picked it up on the
way through to film this program
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and as I opened the
paper I was struck because
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I nearly realized
that there are things
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that relate to
Religious Liberty.
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Any newspaper taken at
random will do that. And this--
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No, no, it's not
surprising I mean
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'cause, you know, it's funny.
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Even though we supposedly
live in this post-modern era
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and we're socially
fit with our Smartphones
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and all our technology
and lot of pendant years ago
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we're predicting
religion which has fade away--
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But is dead in the 70s,
wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. In 60's.
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And it's amazing, but
I think that's because
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linking the religious
questions go to the heart
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of the
fundamental questions about
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who we are as human beings--
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Absolutely and
destiny, who we are
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and what it's all
about, meaning above.
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Yeah, yeah. And all
the technology in the world
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doesn't change, well
nothing in fact it's when--
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I even just got my, I
downloaded this morning.
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I ordered it a while back
and I noticed that it came
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on my iPad a book
called, something called,
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"the quest for immortality."
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And the point of the book
was that struck my interest
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was this person was
arguing that the whole point
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of civilization is to try
to give people immortality
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and it gonna be very interesting
to see where that goes.
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Because they've
been trying to have it
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doing a very good
job, that's for sure.
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But it might have
been that there's a sort of
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culprit
immortality, that there is
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monuments to human progress--
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Oh, yeah, to keep going
on. And actually concrete.
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Ah, may be on one
level, but on the immediate
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its sustention is
normal individual level.
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I think civilization diminishes
in some way as the individuals.
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And if you think
of all the wars go,
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how much permanent people
they ended their mortality,
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you know, their mortality
came to them a lot quicker
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then they might
have otherwise. So, so--
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Now let's move on. But again
there is no question. I can't--
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But--but it always in this
state, we believe it would.
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But I noticed on the third
page, but it actually was banded
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on the front,
interesting case of the largest
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student religious group
at Vanderbilt University,
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it says they're
leaving campus in a dispute
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over the schools
non-discrimination policy.
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Hold on. We don't
want discrimination, do we?
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I know. I know. Oh, yeah.
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It's a policy that busts
student groups. Listen to this.
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This is--viewers
will not believe this that
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"bar student groups
from requiring their leaders
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to hold specific beliefs."
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This is a Catholic religious
club and they're not allowed
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to specify that
they're president in another
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office folders be
catholic Christians.
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Yeah. See this is
where I think you're taking
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this whole idea of
non-discrimination to the--
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To--to, it would be ridiculous.
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Yeah, a ludicrous, you know,
it's just the human nature.
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You eat somewhere that a
little salt is good for you.
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So that might go for a
little salt is good for you
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that must be pouring the salt
on that will be better for you.
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And you know, we've
talked before on the show
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it's where do you
draw the line here.
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How do you do that?
But to me it's absurd.
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You got a catholic
group and they want to keep
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their leaders, Roman Catholic,
it's a scary precedent.
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Well, on one level you
could say this is one of those
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whacky stories that the
newspapers are full of them.
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I mean there are others.
They're not Religious Liberty.
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This is Vanderbilt University.
We're not talking about this.
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But this follows on
2010 Supreme Court case,
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Christian legal
society versus Martinez.
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They upheld campus
nondiscrimination rules.
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Oh, they upheld them, huh?
So that's where this comes from.
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Oh, yeah. What was the--
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You could not bend
that the Christian club
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had to admit
non-Christians and atheists.
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Well, then all
right, but here again okay.
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Okay, then you could say playing
the devils are advocate here.
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Well, nobody is forcing you
to have your club on campus.
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Nobody is forcing
you, have your own club.
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Have it off campus.
Bring in who you want.
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Keep out who you want. So--
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That is what's happening
and that's-- Yeah, yeah.
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I think this is significant.
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They're fleeing
that environment.
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Yeah, yeah. Well-- Where they're
being forced to compromise.
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Yes. Yeah, yeah,
that's the thing.
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You know, as we've said
before if you're going to be,
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you don't live in isolation.
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And if they wanted to
use the campus building,
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maybe they wanted
the campus electricity.
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They wanted to use
the campus toilets.
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They wanted to
use the campus police.
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They wanted--you know, I
don't know all the details here,
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but when you decide
you're gonna be part of
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something larger, you
have to play by the rules.
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And if the rules are
idiotic which, you know,
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again you wonder what
kind of extreme thing,
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there is always a tendency,
somebody does something
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they seems to make a
law, a rule to bade it,
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you know, some extreme thing
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and then
something more moderate.
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I mean, I don't think it's too
much for a Catholic organization
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to want Catholic
people leaving it.
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But if you don't
like it then you leave.
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This is the next thing
for the Supreme Court case
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that required the
membership can't be exclusive.
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Yeah, yeah. But you totally
lose control of your membership,
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if it's opened up to contrary
viewpoints and those people
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then take the
office within it, I mean,
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then how could you
be a Christian at all?
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Well, all right, it is--
If it's occupied by atheists,
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the offices are held by atheists
then it's a mockery of--
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Well, time to take your
club and go somewhere else.
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That's what they're being forced
to, that's the bottom line.
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And it does follow a similar
model at least in my view.
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We were running an
article from New York where
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a number of
churches were meeting on
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school properties
after around weekends.
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But they've been expelled.
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They've said the
Church counted out
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it's property to
be used by a church.
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The school can
allow its property, yeah.
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Well, the state
camp. Yeah, yeah.
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So you have the school
camp, but the state doesn't want
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to be supporting
religion, but you have to rent
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those same properties out
to strange and wonderful groups
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that have nothing to
do with government dimes.
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Sure. So you
can make an argument
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that this is
restricting religion.
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Because on an
open mark why couldn't
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they rent it just
as well as anyone?
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Well, you could
argue, you could argue well
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this is simply what
the establishment clause
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as has been interpreted.
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Because, you know, we
said before you go back,
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I think we talked once
before that the whole purpose
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of the establishment clause
originally was to tell States
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that the Federal
government will leave
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your established churches alone.
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But since, you
know, over the years
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of Supreme Court jurists
prudent establishment clause
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has come to mean something else,
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which I think is in
many ways is very good.
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But if we are going to have a
non-establishment of religion,
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we are going to keep the
government as much as possible
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from promoting a
religion then as absurd
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as that might
sound on the surface,
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we can run it to the
American atheists' society.
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You know, we could, you know,
ran it to the-- I don't know,
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any one of whole
bunch of secular things,
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but the moment
its religious is know,
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you're violating
church and state,
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well to a degree but
this is what, you know,
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in a sense you could say
"we made our bed now live in."
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What's interesting,
you know, it just hit me
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even though I'm hearing
you, you're talking about this,
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the Supreme Court, I
think, have been fairly rigorous
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on maintaining
separation of Churches,
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very rigorous and in some cases
to the point of ridiculousness.
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Well, you know,
lot of times let me,
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it sometimes it can sound
that way, it sounds that way.
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You know, they
can--to have, you know,
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the famous court where
they're allowed to give
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the religious school
money for books, but not maps.
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Or computers,
but what about books
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that have maps in it and so on.
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And I think even the
justices would admit at times--
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It's threatening
the new. It's hairy.
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It's difficult
because it does not
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clear cut wall of separation.
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But the point I was
trying to make is to put,
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I don't have a great challenge
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with most of the
court decisions--
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They have been
quite good over the years,
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but flow
destination was a disaster.
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The Conservative,
politically active religion
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has themselves have
gone another direction
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where they're now openly just--
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Yeah, oh, yeah.
Dismissive and just despise
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the concept of
separation of churches.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So
there's something must happen
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because they're not even
in parallel at a distance.
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They're just diverging.
It's been--I really think
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in a lot of cases it's been
misinformation on their part
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disingenuous on their
part, they don't understand--
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Sure. It's not always been
good and some of the things
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do seen pretty
absurd, but all in all,
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but there is a reason
that America is the most highly
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"religious people of
the industrialized world."
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I mean look at Europe.
My goodness, Europe today
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and they have State
churches and they pay
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there is no such thing as
separation of Church and State
00:10:01.88\00:10:04.88
over there and they
don't have anyone near
00:10:04.89\00:10:07.24
the vibrant kind of Christianity
that you find in America.
00:10:07.25\00:10:11.17
I've thoughts on Europe, I think
we're seeing in recent years
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with the societal
struggles between immigrants
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with another culture
and another religion.
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We're seeing a revision to the
religious identities of Europe.
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Even these people lives
don't exist before. The power--
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Oh, yeah. It's
culture. Ceremonial deism--
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Paper sea as well as
Lutheranism and so on
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and political power I
think has radically increased
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in recent years
because of this dynamic.
00:10:34.33\00:10:35.94
Another article
here that-- now this one
00:10:35.95\00:10:39.12
"Romney and the Evangelicals,"
an interesting tie-up.
00:10:39.13\00:10:41.88
I mean obviously
you see it everyday,
00:10:41.89\00:10:43.50
but here the newspaper
is discussing the dynamic
00:10:43.51\00:10:47.91
of those with political
aspirations over the Angelicals,
00:10:47.92\00:10:50.70
how they're bringing
themselves into line.
00:10:50.71\00:10:53.03
Well, I-- The
reminiscent to the series.
00:10:53.04\00:10:54.89
I tend to think at
this point, they are,
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most of them they're antipathy
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to Barrack Obama
is greater than--
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That's what it says.
Antipathy towards the--
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The end they would
because of it, they don't,
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I share most of these people
probably just hate the fact
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that Romney is a Mormon,
okay and most Evangelicals
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don't even consider
Mormonism a Christian religion.
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Which is I
brought to hold that view,
00:11:18.69\00:11:20.18
but here on the
separation of church,
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no religious tests couple about
the fall of vilified freeze.
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Yeah. That's not the point.
00:11:25.62\00:11:26.66
Nobody is saying Romney
can't run. That's not the issue.
00:11:26.67\00:11:29.52
Romney's got the
right to run and so on
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and I have never
heard any of them saying--
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"they have the
right not to vote for"
00:11:32.85\00:11:33.86
"They have the
right not to vote for."
00:11:33.87\00:11:35.06
So I think that's going to be
interesting how that plays out
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because as I said they
desperately want Obama out,
00:11:38.44\00:11:42.83
but I think a lot of them
are very bummed out at the fact
00:11:42.84\00:11:47.43
that their candidate
now is a Mormon and I--
00:11:47.44\00:11:50.04
I think that Romney
probably, if I were him
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I would just not
even bring it up,
00:11:52.96\00:11:54.31
I would downplay it because
00:11:54.32\00:11:55.50
they don't have
anywhere else to go.
00:11:55.51\00:11:57.65
Because I am not convinced
to Romney's playing the right,
00:11:57.66\00:12:01.48
but I think once he is
in he is not going to be
00:12:01.49\00:12:03.02
a whole lot different
than Obama, if he wins.
00:12:03.03\00:12:05.28
He is not going to be a
whole lot different at all.
00:12:05.29\00:12:07.31
Well, I wish in
the United States,
00:12:07.32\00:12:09.45
I wish people look at
the party position more than
00:12:09.46\00:12:11.84
the candidate who'll
tell loads of fancy tales.
00:12:11.85\00:12:14.14
Yeah, yeah. At the end
of the day, he exemplifies
00:12:14.15\00:12:16.49
what the body of his
party holds at that point.
00:12:16.50\00:12:20.15
Now certainly, well,
depends which state he is in.
00:12:20.16\00:12:23.52
Well, with Romney, you know,
it depends who he is talking to.
00:12:23.53\00:12:26.27
Romney talks to this one.
00:12:26.28\00:12:27.90
This way he talks and
this been one of the big,
00:12:27.91\00:12:30.21
I mean he is a guy that
he said he's gonna rescind
00:12:30.22\00:12:35.26
ObamaCare if he
gets in, you know,
00:12:35.27\00:12:36.87
ObamaCare was
based on what Romney did
00:12:36.88\00:12:39.15
in Massachusetts and my
understanding of the irony
00:12:39.16\00:12:41.57
is he is running away from
it, but from my understanding
00:12:41.58\00:12:44.34
the Romney Care in Massachusetts
is working quite well.
00:12:44.35\00:12:47.84
I think it's done quite well.
00:12:47.85\00:12:49.38
You know, this whole
debate even though it's not
00:12:49.39\00:12:50.62
a Religious Liberty forum
I think and someone coming
00:12:50.63\00:12:53.48
from another country,
living most of my life here--
00:12:53.49\00:12:55.70
So, I'm essentially an American.
00:12:55.71\00:12:56.96
I do think Christian
charity wouldn't be far wrong.
00:12:56.97\00:13:01.59
We should be
concerned about providing
00:13:01.60\00:13:03.52
for people in that community.
00:13:03.53\00:13:04.66
We will be back after the
break to discuss the headlines
00:13:04.67\00:13:08.02
and some of the ramifications
for Religious Freedom. Amen.
00:13:08.03\00:13:10.99