Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Clifford Goldstein
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000180B
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00:06 Welcome back to The Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with guest Clifford Goldstein, 00:10 we were talking about what he's experienced a little bit 00:13 and I have dissidence within the church? 00:15 We all those of who had to edit magazines 00:18 at least regularly get people attacking us 00:20 and telling us about they beef with the church 00:23 and how they'd been set upon and how it wronged. 00:26 And just this last week someone called me up, 00:28 "this is a really just liberty issue." You know. 00:30 "How you guys do about it?" 00:31 Yeah, well, actually there is. I say no. 00:33 You know this is within a church, you're free to live. 00:34 I know. I know. Even if it's if it's unfair, 00:37 it's still not a matter of religious freedom. 00:40 There was a department. I don't know if we still have it 00:43 that dealt specifically with this at the G.C many years ago. 00:46 Yeah. And I and this people would call, I'd say, 00:49 "This is the department you gotta go 00:51 to because we were dealing with religious liberty issues 00:56 when it's the force of the law or, of course, 00:59 I guess technically too." 01:00 You know as well as I do better than I do. 01:03 Religious discrimination cases when people lose their jobs. 01:06 They're gonna lose their jobs over religious issue 01:09 then it's not necessarily legal-- 01:11 well, I guess it does because-- 01:12 But still in light of what we said 01:14 before the break with the-- 01:15 this first this Supreme Court re-determination. 01:19 If you had to beef with your church 01:21 and they were marginalizing you 01:24 because of your religious viewpoint 01:26 you lost your job you have no redress. 01:27 Yeah. The church has the rope. 01:29 Yeah. Well, I think that's just, 01:30 you know, one of the things link about that I've always-- 01:33 that hit me over the years 01:35 when I was in the religious liberty work. 01:37 And I think about it 'cause I see in different things, 01:40 a lot of these things it's-- it's a balance of rights. 01:46 Let's say for a minute. Let's go back to the civil rights thing 01:49 for a minute or religious thing. 01:50 Let's say I have my own business. 01:53 I don't ask Uncle Sam for a dime. 01:56 Have anything Uncle Sam regulates me 01:58 to debt, taxes me to debt. 02:00 Okay, it's my own business. 02:02 Let's say I don't like bald people. 02:04 Okay, I don't like-- 02:05 well, I don't wanna be around bald people. 02:06 I'm getting that in--I don't wanna look at that bald head. 02:09 Okay. Now it's my business. 02:11 It's my business. It's my property. 02:14 It's my--my thing. And then let's say they pass a law. 02:18 You're gonna tell me. You're gonna force me 02:22 that I have to have bald people come in 02:26 into my business if I don't want it. 02:28 Well, in a sense-- That is happening. 02:30 Yeah. Well, yeah but see so-- 02:32 so you might say, okay, if we needed to end 02:35 discrimination against bald people 02:36 or say Jewish people or something. 02:39 It's in the best interest of the state as a whole to do 02:42 that and I gladly did that. 02:45 I gladly did that like civil rights or religious things, 02:47 but we always have to remember 02:49 that when we're doing it you're still infringing 02:52 someone on the rights of others. 02:55 Okay. And ultimately, it's a balance with the courts. 02:57 And with religion, I mean, take religious discrimination. 03:01 Let's say you're a Seventh-day Sabbath keeper, okay? 03:04 And I've got my business and I need Seventh-day-- 03:07 I need, you know, I'm open on a Saturday. 03:09 Okay. I gotta keep my business open seven--24/7. 03:13 And because of your religious beliefs, 03:15 you don't wanna work then find go somewhere else and work. 03:18 Don't make--but then we can go to Court and we could. 03:21 Absolutely, but you're getting into a scenario 03:23 where civil law would prevent you from acting 03:25 that in that and on that sort of-- 03:26 Yeah. Well, but the thing is if this is my business 03:30 and I want my workers 03:33 and I don't wanna give you Saturday off. 03:36 I don't want to give you Sunday and Friday that's all. 03:38 I want you-- and you're gonna go to Court 03:40 and you're gonna sue me and make me do it. 03:42 Now we agree that it is good 03:45 and people should be able to discriminate 03:47 on basis of religion and I'm not against that, 03:49 but just realize that by defending your rights, 03:53 you might as a result end up infringing on others. 03:57 And so it's a very difficult balance 04:00 and that's the way it's always been. 04:01 In my view-- Yes, 04:02 and that's a reasonable law 04:04 because it protects the whole 04:05 against some religious discrimination. 04:08 But if you are that, that Christian 04:11 or that religious person that's being 04:12 forced to compromise your faith, 04:14 I think you'd take the consequences. 04:15 Yeah. Well, that's it. That's the point. 04:17 You can say, "Look, nobody is stopping you" 04:18 That's at may be you're losing your business 04:20 or money or even not being able to operate you business. 04:23 Or you lose your job. 04:24 And, of course, again though 04:25 at the same time though I'm not saying 04:27 that people should be allowed to discriminate that, 04:29 you know, there had been many court cases where, 04:32 you know, we go and try to protect people from that 04:35 and we need to do that. Don't get me wrong. 04:36 We need to do that but when we do 04:38 that we need to remember that though 04:40 we are-- it's a balance. 04:42 We are in one sense, by protecting your rights, 04:45 you might be trampling a little bit on the rights of others. 04:49 But it's a compromise. Yeah, we're members of society. 04:52 No one--- one of John Donne, 04:53 "No man is an island." Yeah. Yeah. Sure. 04:55 Unto himself. Okay, that's it. 04:57 We all have to-- we all have certain limitations 04:59 on what we could do based on how we impact others. 05:02 Now we've talked and dismissed 05:04 is not really a religious liberty thing. 05:06 It debates within a church, 05:07 but it's very interesting to me, there's a certain irony 05:09 because the biggest dispute became in essence 05:12 of religious liberty thing-- the protestant reformation. 05:17 Sure. Yeah. Although I think there was some problem. 05:20 Well, that was a big difference there though 05:21 because back then you disagree 05:22 where then they could burn you at the stake. 05:23 Absolutely, absolutely, at the stake. Martin Luther-- 05:25 It was never a totally intra church thing, 05:27 it's a state at the power 05:29 and the force of the law behind them so-- 05:30 You're ahead of me. What I want to bring out 05:32 there was the extra danger. 05:34 The church had the power of the state 05:36 allied to deal with this dissidence-- 05:39 separation was an internal doctoral debate. Yeah. 05:42 And as a natural result, Martin Luther didn't want it 05:45 but he was ejected under his own religion. 05:49 Yeah. Well, again the whole concept 05:51 of separation of church and state, 05:53 and it's really sure was heading to an intra-church dispute 05:56 but it, of course, very quickly 05:59 it became different churches and the whole world. 06:00 You know, I'll freely admit it at liberty magazine, 06:03 every now and again I take a shot-- 06:04 well, many different groups and churches 06:07 but in particular, I take a shot at Roman Catholics, 06:10 not that there's any not 06:13 that there's any the dignity of all the individuals. 06:15 Many wonderful people that are Roman Catholics 06:18 and the doctrines of the church which I don't agree with, 06:20 they have every right to believe those things, 06:23 but what I keep pointing out 06:24 and it's very important on church state issues. 06:27 Today, the Roman Catholic Church is a hybrid. 06:30 It operates its estate out of 30 acres or something. 06:34 Yeah. I was in the Vatican about six to eight months ago. 06:36 It's kind of cool. Yeah. 06:37 It is a wonderful place to visit. Yeah. 06:39 I like to go there but when 06:41 you're talking church state issues, 06:42 it's the ultimate threat because it is a church masquerading 06:45 as a state or a state masquerading as a church. 06:47 Yeah. Well-- 06:48 And so it's muddies this whole argument very badly. 06:50 Yeah. Yeah. That's a difficult one 06:52 when you deal with Rome per se 06:54 because are you dealing with the church, 06:56 are you dealing with the state? 06:57 And historically, Rome 06:59 has not made a big distinction with that. 07:01 I think they were forced 07:03 to with the advent of the protestant reformation 07:06 and then particularly with church-state 07:07 separation as taught in America. 07:09 America pioneered the whole concept 07:12 of a church-state separation. 07:14 And since I didn't give gratitude 07:16 It's still an experiment. You know, 07:18 I mentioned the terms of some criticism. 07:20 But I should say that-- 07:21 The Protestants haven't ended up any better. 07:23 But on the general defensive religious freedom 07:27 in the modern world and particularly, 07:30 raising an alarm about persecutions around the world. 07:32 The Roman Catholic Church is doing many, many good things. 07:36 Very often we're allied with them. 07:38 But I wanna bring them up in one regard now 07:40 there's been a huge issue in the United States of late 07:44 on this Obama's care-- Yeah. 07:46 And they raised an alarm that there's certain amount 07:50 of ingenuousness-- disingenuousness 07:53 rather about this debate because the-- 07:56 the healthcare provisions were passed some years ago. 07:58 Most of them don't even kick in for a year or two yet. 08:02 So they chose the timing of this 08:03 was absolutely of their own choice. 08:06 They raised an alarm in the middle 08:07 of a political selection process 08:10 and claimed that the Obama's administrations, 08:13 healthcare plan which clearly would seem to force them 08:17 to provide insurance to their employees 08:19 would require them to provide something 08:21 that was against their principles. 08:23 Well, here again as I'm saying you deal with, 08:28 you say--"no man is an island unto himself." 08:30 We're not in a vacuum. 08:32 Healthcare is very complicated. It's very involved. 08:36 You're gonna get the government involved in it. 08:39 There's gonna be the clash. 08:41 So if I decide out of religious reasons, 08:44 I don't wanna provide birth control to people. 08:47 I got special protection but maybe I'm a secular employer. 08:51 And maybe for secular reasons I decide I don't wanna, 08:54 you know, or I don't wanna supply 08:56 or I don't want tummy talks or something like that. 09:00 Why suddenly because it's religious 09:02 they get the protection where it's secular, they don't. 09:05 Now you can still argue. 09:06 Well, religions got their certain inhibitions on religion. 09:09 Religion is not allowed to do certain things in government 09:12 politics the way others are, 09:14 but there are certain protections. So, yeah. Yeah. 09:17 It's been an interesting debate but, 09:19 and, you know, we have two or three articles coming up 09:22 in liberty magazine by law 09:23 so I'm going through the fine points, 09:25 but on the big thing, what most people are missing 09:28 is that the qualifier or the compromiser 09:31 on this really has been state money. 09:34 The Roman Catholic Church takes more money than all other-- 09:37 That's the biggest, probably the biggest thing. 09:39 Combine. Yeah. 09:40 And the issue that they were raising was in hospitals, 09:43 public institution or public type institutions 09:46 where mostly government money, mostly known catholic employees, 09:50 servicing mostly the general public. 09:53 And that environment to deprive the general public 09:58 of what they were entitled on the law it seems to me 10:00 as not religious accommodation 10:02 or not the state and not religious accommodation per se, 10:06 it is the church forcing the state to comply 10:11 with their religious viewpoint, which is the opposite dynamic 10:15 and the thing that we need to stay clear off. 10:18 Well, again it's all very complicated 10:20 and I think you have to look at each individual 10:22 'cause you have, a lot of this catholic hospitals, 10:25 lot of the employees aren't even Catholics. 10:27 That's what I'm saying, most of them are not. 10:30 And most of the people are servicing 10:31 and most of the money, the bills and funds, the organization. 10:35 So at what point does it became-- 10:38 become almost derivative of religious activities 10:40 and yet they can force on the larger population 10:44 a religious viewpoint that not coincidentally, 10:47 may not make any legal difference but morally, 10:49 they're not even able to convince their own membership. 10:52 I think it's 98 or 97 percent of Catholics got there views. 10:57 North America. Yes, in North America 10:58 not worldwide, absolutely. Yeah. 11:00 Well, yeah--as I said these are all very complicated issues. 11:03 And when you mix church and state together 11:06 as like an a public institution or a private institution 11:10 that's run by say a church but it's public per se hospital 11:14 where they meet, there 11:15 you're gonna have a lot of clashes. 11:18 But I think we are agreed that within the church, 11:20 these are not religious liberty issues 11:22 and there's the give and take ideas 11:23 and ultimately the church 11:26 and the church body holds certain views 11:27 and if someone deviant from that, 11:29 there's a right to deal with it. 11:30 Well, I think in the end I think the crucial message here 11:33 would be, you know, these are very complicated issues 11:36 and as much as possible, we need to try to keep the principles 11:41 that run secular government 11:42 and there's fear the principles of religion 11:45 and there's fear knowing that inevitably 11:47 there is going to be some clashes 11:49 and you have to deal with it as they come. 11:51 But the principle behind separation 11:53 needs to be foremost and forthone. 11:57 Every now and again, I get an email or a phone call 12:00 from somebody within a church, 12:03 sometimes my church, sometimes other churches 12:06 complaining that their religious freedoms 12:08 are being restricted because their religious viewpoint is-- 12:12 is being censored or perhaps 12:14 they are being restricted in their church office 12:18 or perhaps on occasion they are being severed 12:22 with their relationship with the church as being severed. 12:25 These are not good situations and behind them lies 12:28 considerable doctrinal dispute. 12:31 But usually, as a matter of cause, 12:34 these do not represent a threat to religious liberty. 12:38 These are not classic religious liberty situations. 12:41 A church is a free association 12:44 certainly in our western construct 12:47 with the separation of church and state. 12:50 It's true that Martin Luther and others were hounded 12:55 for their dissidence within the church 12:56 and their very lives were at stake. 12:58 That was the problem where church and state 13:01 was mixed and the church prohibitions 13:04 were transferred to state action. 13:06 But we need to remember that we are free agents 13:09 and that God gives us the right to differ. 13:13 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17