Welcome back to
The Liberty Insider.
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Before the break with
guest Clifford Goldstein,
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we were talking about what
he's experienced a little bit
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and I have
dissidence within the church?
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We all those of who
had to edit magazines
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at least regularly
get people attacking us
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and telling us about
they beef with the church
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and how they'd been set
upon and how it wronged.
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And just this last
week someone called me up,
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"this is a really just
liberty issue." You know.
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"How you guys do about it?"
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Yeah, well,
actually there is. I say no.
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You know this is within a
church, you're free to live.
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I know. I know. Even
if it's if it's unfair,
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it's still not a
matter of religious freedom.
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There was a department. I
don't know if we still have it
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that dealt specifically with
this at the G.C many years ago.
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Yeah. And I and this
people would call, I'd say,
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"This is the
department you gotta go
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to because we were dealing
with religious liberty issues
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when it's the force
of the law or, of course,
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I guess technically too."
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You know as well as
I do better than I do.
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Religious discrimination cases
when people lose their jobs.
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They're gonna lose their
jobs over religious issue
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then it's not
necessarily legal--
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well, I guess it does because--
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But still in
light of what we said
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before the break with the--
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this first this
Supreme Court re-determination.
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If you had to
beef with your church
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and they were marginalizing you
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because of your
religious viewpoint
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you lost your job
you have no redress.
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Yeah. The church has the rope.
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Yeah. Well, I think that's just,
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you know, one of the things
link about that I've always--
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that hit me over the years
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when I was in the
religious liberty work.
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And I think about it 'cause
I see in different things,
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a lot of these things
it's-- it's a balance of rights.
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Let's say for a minute. Let's go
back to the civil rights thing
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for a minute or religious thing.
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Let's say I
have my own business.
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I don't ask
Uncle Sam for a dime.
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Have anything
Uncle Sam regulates me
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to debt, taxes me to debt.
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Okay, it's my own business.
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Let's say I
don't like bald people.
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Okay, I don't like--
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well, I don't wanna
be around bald people.
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I'm getting that in--I don't
wanna look at that bald head.
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Okay. Now it's my business.
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It's my
business. It's my property.
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It's my--my thing. And
then let's say they pass a law.
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You're gonna tell
me. You're gonna force me
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that I have to
have bald people come in
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into my business
if I don't want it.
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Well, in a
sense-- That is happening.
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Yeah. Well, yeah but see so--
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so you might say,
okay, if we needed to end
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discrimination
against bald people
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or say Jewish
people or something.
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It's in the best interest
of the state as a whole to do
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that and I gladly did that.
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I gladly did that like civil
rights or religious things,
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but we always have to remember
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that when we're doing
it you're still infringing
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someone on the rights of others.
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Okay. And ultimately,
it's a balance with the courts.
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And with religion, I mean,
take religious discrimination.
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Let's say you're a Seventh-day
Sabbath keeper, okay?
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And I've got my business
and I need Seventh-day--
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I need, you know,
I'm open on a Saturday.
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Okay. I gotta keep my
business open seven--24/7.
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And because of
your religious beliefs,
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you don't wanna work then
find go somewhere else and work.
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Don't make--but then we
can go to Court and we could.
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Absolutely, but you're
getting into a scenario
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where civil law would
prevent you from acting
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that in that and
on that sort of--
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Yeah. Well, but the
thing is if this is my business
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and I want my workers
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and I don't wanna
give you Saturday off.
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I don't want to give you
Sunday and Friday that's all.
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I want you-- and
you're gonna go to Court
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and you're gonna sue
me and make me do it.
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Now we agree that it is good
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and people should
be able to discriminate
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on basis of religion
and I'm not against that,
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but just realize that
by defending your rights,
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you might as a result
end up infringing on others.
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And so it's a
very difficult balance
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and that's the
way it's always been.
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In my view-- Yes,
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and that's a reasonable law
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because it protects the whole
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against some
religious discrimination.
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But if you are
that, that Christian
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or that religious
person that's being
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forced to compromise your faith,
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I think you'd
take the consequences.
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Yeah. Well, that's
it. That's the point.
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You can say, "Look,
nobody is stopping you"
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That's at may be
you're losing your business
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or money or even not being
able to operate you business.
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Or you lose your job.
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And, of course, again though
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at the same time
though I'm not saying
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that people should be
allowed to discriminate that,
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you know, there had
been many court cases where,
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you know, we go and try
to protect people from that
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and we need to do
that. Don't get me wrong.
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We need to do
that but when we do
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that we need to
remember that though
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we are-- it's a balance.
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We are in one sense,
by protecting your rights,
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you might be trampling a little
bit on the rights of others.
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But it's a compromise.
Yeah, we're members of society.
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No one--- one of John Donne,
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"No man is an
island." Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
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Unto himself. Okay, that's it.
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We all have to-- we all
have certain limitations
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on what we could do
based on how we impact others.
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Now we've talked and dismissed
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is not really a
religious liberty thing.
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It debates within a church,
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but it's very interesting
to me, there's a certain irony
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because the biggest
dispute became in essence
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of religious liberty thing--
the protestant reformation.
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Sure. Yeah. Although I
think there was some problem.
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Well, that was a big
difference there though
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because back then you disagree
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where then they could
burn you at the stake.
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Absolutely, absolutely,
at the stake. Martin Luther--
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It was never a
totally intra church thing,
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it's a state at the power
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and the force of
the law behind them so--
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You're ahead of me.
What I want to bring out
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there was the extra danger.
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The church had
the power of the state
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allied to deal
with this dissidence--
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separation was an
internal doctoral debate. Yeah.
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And as a natural result,
Martin Luther didn't want it
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but he was ejected
under his own religion.
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Yeah. Well,
again the whole concept
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of separation of
church and state,
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and it's really sure was heading
to an intra-church dispute
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but it, of course, very quickly
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it became different
churches and the whole world.
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You know, I'll freely
admit it at liberty magazine,
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every now and
again I take a shot--
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well, many
different groups and churches
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but in particular, I take
a shot at Roman Catholics,
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not that there's any not
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that there's any the
dignity of all the individuals.
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Many wonderful people
that are Roman Catholics
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and the doctrines of the
church which I don't agree with,
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they have every right
to believe those things,
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but what I keep pointing out
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and it's very important
on church state issues.
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Today, the Roman
Catholic Church is a hybrid.
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It operates its estate
out of 30 acres or something.
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Yeah. I was in the Vatican
about six to eight months ago.
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It's kind of cool. Yeah.
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It is a wonderful
place to visit. Yeah.
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I like to go there but when
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you're talking
church state issues,
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it's the ultimate threat because
it is a church masquerading
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as a state or a state
masquerading as a church.
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Yeah. Well--
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And so it's muddies this
whole argument very badly.
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Yeah. Yeah.
That's a difficult one
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when you deal with Rome per se
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because are you
dealing with the church,
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are you dealing with the state?
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And historically, Rome
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has not made a big
distinction with that.
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I think they were forced
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to with the advent of
the protestant reformation
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and then
particularly with church-state
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separation as taught in America.
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America
pioneered the whole concept
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of a church-state separation.
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And since I
didn't give gratitude
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It's still an
experiment. You know,
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I mentioned the
terms of some criticism.
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But I should say that--
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The Protestants
haven't ended up any better.
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But on the general
defensive religious freedom
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in the modern
world and particularly,
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raising an alarm about
persecutions around the world.
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The Roman Catholic Church is
doing many, many good things.
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Very often we're
allied with them.
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But I wanna bring
them up in one regard now
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there's been a huge issue
in the United States of late
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on this Obama's care-- Yeah.
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And they raised an alarm
that there's certain amount
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of
ingenuousness-- disingenuousness
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rather about this
debate because the--
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the healthcare provisions
were passed some years ago.
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Most of them don't even
kick in for a year or two yet.
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So they chose the timing of this
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was absolutely
of their own choice.
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They raised an
alarm in the middle
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of a political selection process
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and claimed that the
Obama's administrations,
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healthcare plan which
clearly would seem to force them
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to provide
insurance to their employees
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would require them
to provide something
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that was against
their principles.
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Well, here again as
I'm saying you deal with,
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you say--"no man is
an island unto himself."
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We're not in a vacuum.
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Healthcare is very
complicated. It's very involved.
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You're gonna get the
government involved in it.
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There's gonna be the clash.
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So if I decide out
of religious reasons,
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I don't wanna provide
birth control to people.
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I got special protection but
maybe I'm a secular employer.
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And maybe for secular
reasons I decide I don't wanna,
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you know, or I
don't wanna supply
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or I don't want tummy
talks or something like that.
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Why suddenly
because it's religious
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they get the protection
where it's secular, they don't.
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Now you can still argue.
00:09:05.23\00:09:06.22
Well, religions got their
certain inhibitions on religion.
00:09:06.23\00:09:09.87
Religion is not allowed to
do certain things in government
00:09:09.88\00:09:12.80
politics the way others are,
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but there are certain
protections. So, yeah. Yeah.
00:09:14.40\00:09:17.43
It's been an
interesting debate but,
00:09:17.44\00:09:19.57
and, you know, we have two
or three articles coming up
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in liberty magazine by law
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so I'm going
through the fine points,
00:09:23.37\00:09:24.99
but on the big thing,
what most people are missing
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is that the
qualifier or the compromiser
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on this really
has been state money.
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The Roman Catholic Church takes
more money than all other--
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That's the biggest,
probably the biggest thing.
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Combine. Yeah.
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And the issue that they
were raising was in hospitals,
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public institution or
public type institutions
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where mostly government money,
mostly known catholic employees,
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servicing mostly
the general public.
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And that environment to
deprive the general public
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of what they were entitled
on the law it seems to me
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as not religious accommodation
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or not the state and not
religious accommodation per se,
00:10:02.77\00:10:06.50
it is the church
forcing the state to comply
00:10:06.51\00:10:11.43
with their religious viewpoint,
which is the opposite dynamic
00:10:11.44\00:10:15.73
and the thing that we
need to stay clear off.
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Well, again it's
all very complicated
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and I think you have
to look at each individual
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'cause you have, a lot
of this catholic hospitals,
00:10:22.60\00:10:25.88
lot of the employees
aren't even Catholics.
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That's what I'm
saying, most of them are not.
00:10:27.95\00:10:30.04
And most of the
people are servicing
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and most of the money, the bills
and funds, the organization.
00:10:31.93\00:10:35.92
So at what
point does it became--
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become almost derivative
of religious activities
00:10:38.11\00:10:40.82
and yet they can force
on the larger population
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a religious viewpoint
that not coincidentally,
00:10:44.72\00:10:47.41
may not make any legal
difference but morally,
00:10:47.42\00:10:49.78
they're not even able to
convince their own membership.
00:10:49.79\00:10:52.61
I think it's 98 or 97 percent
of Catholics got there views.
00:10:52.62\00:10:57.08
North America.
Yes, in North America
00:10:57.09\00:10:58.81
not worldwide, absolutely. Yeah.
00:10:58.82\00:11:00.18
Well, yeah--as I said these
are all very complicated issues.
00:11:00.19\00:11:03.68
And when you mix
church and state together
00:11:03.69\00:11:06.58
as like an a public institution
or a private institution
00:11:06.59\00:11:10.72
that's run by say a church
but it's public per se hospital
00:11:10.73\00:11:14.73
where they meet, there
00:11:14.74\00:11:15.81
you're gonna
have a lot of clashes.
00:11:15.82\00:11:18.09
But I think we are
agreed that within the church,
00:11:18.10\00:11:20.48
these are not
religious liberty issues
00:11:20.49\00:11:21.98
and there's the
give and take ideas
00:11:21.99\00:11:23.48
and ultimately the church
00:11:23.49\00:11:26.02
and the church
body holds certain views
00:11:26.03\00:11:27.66
and if someone
deviant from that,
00:11:27.67\00:11:29.12
there's a right to deal with it.
00:11:29.13\00:11:30.30
Well, I think in the end I
think the crucial message here
00:11:30.31\00:11:32.98
would be, you know, these
are very complicated issues
00:11:32.99\00:11:36.93
and as much as possible, we need
to try to keep the principles
00:11:36.94\00:11:41.06
that run secular government
00:11:41.07\00:11:42.85
and there's fear the
principles of religion
00:11:42.86\00:11:45.09
and there's fear
knowing that inevitably
00:11:45.10\00:11:47.68
there is going
to be some clashes
00:11:47.69\00:11:49.19
and you have to deal
with it as they come.
00:11:49.20\00:11:51.52
But the
principle behind separation
00:11:51.53\00:11:53.93
needs to be
foremost and forthone.
00:11:53.94\00:11:57.57
Every now and again, I
get an email or a phone call
00:11:57.58\00:12:00.47
from somebody within a church,
00:12:00.48\00:12:03.53
sometimes my church,
sometimes other churches
00:12:03.54\00:12:06.24
complaining that
their religious freedoms
00:12:06.25\00:12:08.29
are being restricted because
their religious viewpoint is--
00:12:08.30\00:12:12.16
is being censored or perhaps
00:12:12.17\00:12:14.66
they are being restricted
in their church office
00:12:14.67\00:12:18.23
or perhaps on
occasion they are being severed
00:12:18.24\00:12:22.44
with their relationship with
the church as being severed.
00:12:22.45\00:12:25.63
These are not good
situations and behind them lies
00:12:25.64\00:12:28.91
considerable doctrinal dispute.
00:12:28.92\00:12:31.04
But usually, as
a matter of cause,
00:12:31.05\00:12:34.45
these do not represent a
threat to religious liberty.
00:12:34.46\00:12:38.18
These are not classic
religious liberty situations.
00:12:38.19\00:12:41.58
A church is a free association
00:12:41.59\00:12:44.74
certainly in our
western construct
00:12:44.75\00:12:47.22
with the separation
of church and state.
00:12:47.23\00:12:50.40
It's true that Martin
Luther and others were hounded
00:12:50.41\00:12:55.23
for their
dissidence within the church
00:12:55.24\00:12:56.90
and their very
lives were at stake.
00:12:56.91\00:12:58.86
That was the problem
where church and state
00:12:58.87\00:13:01.20
was mixed and the
church prohibitions
00:13:01.21\00:13:04.17
were
transferred to state action.
00:13:04.18\00:13:06.94
But we need to
remember that we are free agents
00:13:06.95\00:13:09.53
and that God gives
us the right to differ.
00:13:09.54\00:13:13.34
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:13.35\00:13:16.28