Welcome to the
"Liberty insider."
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This is the program
bringing you up-to-date,
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news, views, discussion,
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and information
on religious liberty,
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developments around the world
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and of course particularly
in the United States.
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I am Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Clifford Goldstein.
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Once upon a time, an
editor of Liberty Magazine,
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but for the last
13 or 14 years Editor
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of the Seventh-day
Adventist Sabbath School Lessons
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that go out around the
whole world membership.
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Now you never have
anybody differ from you
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or what you edit
in put together--
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I have never, never, ever.
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And I wish I can say that about
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what goes to liberty even though
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it's a
consistent with the historic
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Adventist view on
religious liberty.
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But within a church
there is often dissidence,
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questioning, argumentation, can
even get further a field than
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that but because they denies
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the common claim to
be worshipping a God,
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and honoring and
respecting each other.
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But is at the
bite within a church,
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can you legitimately say that
a religious liberty question?
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Well I think
generally, I can remember
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when I was in your job
and every now and then,
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I would get an
e-mail or complaints
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somebody's favorite dissidence.
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They didn't let
him speak in a church
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or got this fellow or
something and they called me up
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in the religious
liberty department.
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And I'd say, "I am sorry
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but this is
nothing, to do with us."
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You know, this is
a see the main thing,
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see the genius I think of that.
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The whole concept
of separation of church
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and state is I obey
the Laws of the Land.
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Why I do because I am
so in love with government
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that I obey the
laws, pay the taxes
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and do and follow those, no.
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I do it because they
have the force of law.
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The force, they can force me.
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And in fact-- They coarse me.
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You don't even need to put
the law in. They control force.
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In fact, the
surfer said the state
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has the monopoly on force.
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Yes, yes, so the point is,
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the point is and it has to be
that way. It has to be that way.
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No government is
gonna work unless, you know.
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what could of the laws,
unless there is the power
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to force them, the
force, the threat of jail,
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and, you know, fines.
That had a church in forces--
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Well, that but I'm not there.
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Let me get to the
point, but the point is,
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the point is when...and that's
the way government should work.
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But when you deal
with religious issues,
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you know, the whole
point of the Gospel,
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the whole point is
we worship God freely.
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We worship God, I mean
a force to worship the--
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That's the force,
that's a biblical viewpoint
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that may not necessarily
be a Quranic viewpoint--
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Yeah, yeah, but I'm just
dealing from our perspective.
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I'm dealing from our
perspective right know.
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We, we deal with that,
that and the whole point is God
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doesn't want forced worship.
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He could have
coarse us if He wanted to,
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He didn't and so on.
Now that's the difference
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so you got the realm,
the civil realm. Uses force.
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You've got the religious realm
which does use force, okay.
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That's the idea with God.
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And so the genius of
church and states separation
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is to try to keep them separate
now to get to your question.
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You are working inside a church.
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It is a voluntary organization.
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That is the key. You are right.
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It's voluntary. There is
no force of law telling you,
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If you don't do this,
your going to get a fine.
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You know, you don't do
this, you're gonna go to jail.
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So you are in a
voluntary or relations,
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so I think, I remember
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when I first
became editor of Liberty.
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There was an article
about some dissident nuns,
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some dissident
nuns who had posted...
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you know, wrote it--
A cover illustration.
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It was a cover illustration,
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but we got a lot of trouble over
that, but that's another issue.
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I don't think I
want to go into that.
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We won awards for
that, but we also got.
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And funny things is I had
nothing to do with the cover.
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I wasn't there at the meeting,
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at the editorial layout meeting,
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but because it was my article
I was one that got shoot out.
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But the point is these
nuns have written an art,
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or published an ad or something,
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the fine the pope on abortion
a birth cum nuns birth control,
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I don't know what
that's all about but--
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But sure of us. Yeah.
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Well, they do
abortion or whatever
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and then they were
getting in discipline,
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they were getting disciplined
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and we
basically the article was.
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I defended the
Roman Catholic Church.
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It was like hey,
it's their church.
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They have the right.
These are the rules, you know.
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They maintained
their own. Yeah, yeah,
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and these women
wanted to go there.
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You know, they get
to the state of all
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that and then we hadn't had.
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It was not a
religious liberty issue.
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It was an eternal
issue with the church,
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in of itself, it didn't
deal with laws of the land.
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Now there were cases
too I remember too early on.
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It's funny the stuff
comes back. We did a case where,
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I think some armies
or something in Canada.
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And there was some fight.
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I remember that. Yeah,
and the people split up,
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but see then the government
got involve because there was,
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there were property rights.
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There was
property that was involved.
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Then these people
with this fellowship
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and kick out that,
well, they say, well,
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we pay for this
building. We did that so.
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So in principle and
internal church dispute
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doesn't really have
and I think the basic...
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but there is really no
recourse of the government
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as long as the church
follows the establish procedures
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that it has for dealing
with these kind of thing.
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But in short in most cases,
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it's not a
religious liberty issue.
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You are actually
giving and I agree with you,
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but display the
devil advocate here.
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You're in a way
giving the backdoor
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I given for Sharia law
within the certain community
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as long as that
doesn't impinge on civil law.
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Well, you know, often, you know,
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if it doesn't I
supposed it doesn't.
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If you have a
Muslim and their mosque,
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and they want to, I
mean, enforce certain things
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and they want use
their Sharia law--
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But because we also had
article in liberty magazine
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about Orthodox Jewish Law
for one of the better term
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where within that community,
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they have had
their prescriptions for,
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in fact we had an article
recently went out of bounce
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because it was the led
the divorce decree. The Get.
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The Get. The Get
wasn't been granted
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and was being used
prejudicially against this woman
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to restrict her
options in civil life,
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but within the normal bounce,
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they had the community
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had been allow
to watch it though.
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And I think the
courts for the most part,
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the courts wisely so as I said,
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I've been out of
the stuff for a longtime
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but I remember
lot of the principles
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but not the details, but
the courts as much as possible
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they want to stay out
of religious disputes.
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Yeah, and... Stay out
as much as they can't.
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They leave it to the people
to deal with it on their own.
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And we've been very gratify then
the religious liberty community,
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the very recent supreme court
case in Hosanna-Tabor case.
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Don't know. We got
a whole program on it,
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but just to refresh those
viewers who didn't seen it.
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There was a case
in a Lutheran school
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where a teacher who mostly
taught secular topics, but--
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But did take
chapel now and then,
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she was laid off. She
says because of her disability.
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She had narcolepsy.
The Lutheran school said
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they didn't need give a
reason, as a church institution
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they were within their rights.
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Went to the supreme court
and the supreme court said
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that in matters of employment
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and all of these
issues doesn't matter
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if it's the church
operating its program,
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the state is out
of the business. Well.
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And that might allow
some very unfair things
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to happen within the structure.
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But it gives a
safety environment
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for the church to
operate within its chatter.
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Of course, now, you want a
play the devil's advocate here.
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I was just
putting myself in the mind
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to somebody
like Richard Dawkins.
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Oh, he would find
this very convention.
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Yeah, 'cause it suddenly,
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you wrap something in the
matter of religion and suddenly
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all these protections, you know,
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are given through that they
claim it's a religious things
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and suddenly they wrapped
around all these protections
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and the argument would be well,
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they are sure there
might be some people
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who are dishonest with it,
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disgenuine with
it and abusing it
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but it's a
nature of our country.
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It's a nature of the
government that we have.
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We go out of our way to
protect even the most absurd,
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ludicrous
religious views. I mean,
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I remember we used to, we
find ourselves time and again
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allied with the scientologists.
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Yeah. What we gonna do?
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That I like the religion,
no, but that I even think it.
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I don't know I mean
that was but whatever was.
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They weren't breaking the law.
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Yeah, they have to be respected.
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So they have, we
would go to bad form.
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But I am afraid.
And I mean I was happy
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with that Supreme
Court action, but the logic
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and you mentioned
too that's the logic
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of thought development
within our present society,
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I think is arguing
against this old blanket respect
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and accommodation for everything
that the church does. Yeah.
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President Obama when
he came into office said
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that on the
faith-based initiative
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which is improbable compromise
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I think where
the states is funding
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church affiliated programs,
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but he said the
money would continue
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but when I took the state money
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that would be required to abide
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by these is non
discriminations standards.
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Sure. Well,
that's the main problem.
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And I think that's
where it's heading.
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The state is loathed to do
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that because then
almost by definition
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they are paddling
about in church concerns
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even as they
untangled probably real cases
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of discrimination on
gender and disability.
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Well, that's
always been the issue.
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You want to get
government money,
00:10:09.32\00:10:10.96
you got to get the
rules. And that was since
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when I remember in
the early days again
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that stuff is
still faint early days
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when they were disestablishing
00:10:17.50\00:10:19.37
the churches
from the government.
00:10:19.38\00:10:22.17
There was one got I thought
there was gonna be a disaster.
00:10:22.18\00:10:24.88
You know, it was gonna,
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the state needed
to help the churches,
00:10:25.90\00:10:27.80
needed to and then
they ended up disestablish
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and this guy years
later was a best thing
00:10:30.57\00:10:32.70
that ever happen to him. Yeah.
00:10:32.71\00:10:34.17
When you get their
money, they help the play.
00:10:34.18\00:10:36.76
They help the write
rules. And I don't want some,
00:10:36.77\00:10:38.77
I think it be very
lurid to have some bureaucrat
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in Washington D.C.
writing the rules for your,
00:10:42.48\00:10:45.19
how your churches gonna go.
00:10:45.20\00:10:47.37
But to a certain
degree there was some of it,
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but there was
certain degree because we,
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religion is everywhere
the government is everywhere,
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it's not, James Madison remember
00:10:54.54\00:10:56.41
he talked about and we used
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the metaphor
"Wall" which came from--
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Not from Madison
that was Jefferson,
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we use the term. From Jefferson,
00:11:01.82\00:11:03.02
but Madison talked
about a line of separation.
00:11:03.03\00:11:07.16
He talked about a
line. And in many ways
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as you know
Madison was more specific
00:11:09.47\00:11:13.43
about maintaining that
line of the separation.
00:11:13.44\00:11:16.34
Yeah, yeah, well. Jefferson
was more conceptual Madison
00:11:16.35\00:11:19.69
really even argued against
00:11:19.70\00:11:21.71
paying teachers
against Chaplains--
00:11:21.72\00:11:23.86
He was against the Chaplain.
00:11:23.87\00:11:25.02
And technically,
technically how can you,
00:11:25.03\00:11:28.78
you know but I think
whatever the court said
00:11:28.79\00:11:30.62
there was one of the
early court cases years ago
00:11:30.63\00:11:33.11
where somebody
fraud against chaplain
00:11:33.12\00:11:34.82
and there was a
court case with it.
00:11:34.83\00:11:36.81
The supreme
court voted, upheld it
00:11:36.82\00:11:40.14
and siding
precedents and so on--
00:11:40.15\00:11:42.82
So usually that's sort
thing is ceremonial deals--
00:11:42.83\00:11:46.02
Yeah, yeah. Something
had a sort of religious--
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Well, that's the money.
00:11:48.19\00:11:49.41
Been around so
long, it's meaningless.
00:11:49.42\00:11:50.61
Yeah, yeah. that in
God we trust the people
00:11:50.62\00:11:53.46
that thought that as
well. But I think the point is
00:11:53.47\00:11:56.48
we want separation
of church and state,
00:11:56.49\00:11:58.92
but it's not this clear cut.
00:11:58.93\00:12:01.92
The concept of
absolute separation
00:12:01.93\00:12:04.34
of church and
state is ludicrous.
00:12:04.35\00:12:06.83
It's not, you know, won it
so you got absolute your church
00:12:06.84\00:12:10.05
is burning to the ground.
Well, they don't pay taxes.
00:12:10.06\00:12:13.27
Well separation
of church and state
00:12:13.28\00:12:15.01
why to have tax
payer money come in help
00:12:15.02\00:12:17.87
put out the fire in your church
00:12:17.88\00:12:19.85
when you don't support you know
00:12:19.86\00:12:21.65
the government
with tax payer money?
00:12:21.66\00:12:24.42
So it's not a clear cut
thing either way around,
00:12:24.43\00:12:27.57
but when internal church
disputes unless there is some,
00:12:27.58\00:12:32.27
you know, legal or civil
or financial issue pretty much
00:12:32.28\00:12:37.14
the courts stay out
which is the way other support.
00:12:37.15\00:12:39.19
Absolutely
that's the safest way.
00:12:39.20\00:12:40.83
We will be back
after a short break
00:12:40.84\00:12:42.63
to continue this discussion.
00:12:42.64\00:12:44.20
I think you will find it
very interesting and I hope,
00:12:44.21\00:12:47.11
but often I hope not, but often
very reminiscent to perhaps
00:12:47.12\00:12:49.97
what you have experienced in
your church. We will be back.
00:12:49.98\00:12:53.33