Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Clifford Goldstein
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000179B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider,
00:08 before the break and in fact during the break 00:11 with guest Clifford Goldstein. 00:12 We were talking about philosophical viewpoint 00:16 over discussion of religious liberty, 00:18 but particularly zeroing in on Dostoevsky's, the inquisitor. 00:21 Yeah, the grand inquisitor. 00:22 The grand inquisitor, the character 00:24 of brothers Karamazov, but this classic scene 00:27 where Christ come back to Spain 00:31 in the year of the inquisition is arrested 00:34 and then confronted by the Torquemada was the model. 00:38 Yeah. But-- Called the old man. 00:40 The old man, there is an out prison 00:42 I remember Verdi's Don Carlos, 00:46 that has pretty much the same thing with the inquisitor 00:49 there with the king justifying 00:51 how religion is going to control the-- 00:54 Well, as we said, I mean, 00:55 when you had been in a religion, 00:56 you had been in the peoples you know, 00:59 who we don't come whoever win, where did we come from. 01:03 What is the purpose of our lives? 01:05 What happens when we die? 01:06 Because, you know, the thing is hey, 01:08 you say the life is short. 01:10 But whatever happens after we die 01:12 is gonna last the whole life along. 01:14 Yeah. In fact, I always slot with the late Pascal, 01:17 you know, that 16th century, the 17th century mystic. 01:22 You know, basically said, it's just hard time 01:23 to stand on any logical person, 01:25 does it make first and formals to thought of what happens 01:30 when we die and preparing for 01:32 because death is gonna be forever. 01:34 Well, in reality we spend most of life avoiding that. 01:37 Well, that was it. That's really what goes on. 01:39 I think of that lying by-- 01:41 Even in religion where it is an argument. 01:44 Some critics of religion point out that 01:46 we're trying to avoid it by positing something beyond. 01:49 Yeah, well that's one of that. 01:50 But, that real point of death and even Christ 01:52 of course on the cross. 01:53 Aah, that was the moment of blackness, 01:55 you know, why we forsaken me. 01:57 I think our organism is not set up to comprehend it. 02:01 I've played mental guys before and I think my mind 02:03 cannot really come with the fact of not being. 02:06 I remember reading one time about a lecture 02:10 when he talked about how he-- 02:11 he saw by the political flaws for time as hard, 02:14 since he had that only thing people care about 02:16 is being protective from death and they'll have a sovereign, 02:20 they'll give them complete total power, 02:22 complete total power over everything 02:24 as well as the sovereign to protect this life. 02:26 And first of at all he saw the key things and thought 02:28 that was way over the top layer where the top 02:30 till the person was confronted by nice point in central park 02:35 and he was to knew, his life was in danger 02:38 and at that instant believe it or not, 02:40 the teacher said this guy of course came back to me. 02:43 And that he is not to think he keeps front with the knife 02:45 and he's thinking about the 17th century 02:47 political philosopher, Thomas Hobbes. 02:49 Look a point was that death, so the point is 02:51 and so religion has this power because it comes to the most 02:56 innate needs and that's what I believe 02:58 in the story of the grand inquisitor. 03:01 He was railing against Christ, because you've the potential, 03:05 you've this power, you could have commanded these people, 03:09 you could have forced them to-- 03:10 He thought he gave it away for free. 03:11 There was no control with. 03:13 You're gonna force them to do anything 03:15 you wanted, but you didn't do that. 03:18 You gave them freedom and he says we here 03:21 as the church and I guess as I said in the-- 03:23 in the novel Dostoevsky was using the grand inquisitor 03:27 to represent the roman catholic church 03:29 and this was as much reflected the Dostoevsky 03:30 of the times that Dostoevsky, as he lived in as a member 03:33 of the Russian orthodox church, 03:35 but I think that had complied anything, 03:37 anywhere does even has to be religion 03:38 any kind of appearance of power. 03:40 So, he was really against Christ 03:42 as well as that you didn't do it, 03:43 you believe it so we in the church we're gonna do it 03:48 and you're still so, why have you come here. 03:51 Why have you come here to interfere 03:54 with what we're doing, because he was afraid, 03:56 he was afraid Christ was gonna do the same, 03:59 you know, I think he was afraid that because 04:01 Christ was showing them-- and the story of course 04:05 this is fiction the radical difference between 04:08 what he is really like and what a church was now. 04:12 Yeah, of course this was the same argument 04:13 and Christ said, when he did come to this 04:17 as between him and the church authorities. 04:19 That was their objection. 04:20 He didn't fulfill their expectations 04:22 or what the bizarre was and-- 04:23 and they have how structured to protect. 04:26 Well, they were all hoping that the messiah 04:27 would come and overthrow the Romans. 04:29 They were hoping for the-- 04:30 When I think it was a little even more than that with the, 04:32 with the leaders of the San Hadrian, 04:37 he threatened their political power. 04:41 Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. 04:42 Adopted, yeah, because I think they were 04:44 able to see the contrast between 04:47 what he did and the power that he had. 04:49 Remember healing on the Sabbath. Oh, yeah. 04:51 It wasn't sanctity as Sabbath ever concerned of that. 04:53 They were the ones that laid down rules of behavior 04:56 for the Sabbath and if people saw that their rules 04:58 didn't need to be obeyed they would lose power. 05:00 In fact, I once wrote an article one time, 05:03 it was called uncle and uncle Caiaphas eyes. 05:10 And it was a letter that had, 05:13 you know, it was obviously fiction that Caiaphas wrote 05:15 to her niece explaining his justification 05:20 for why they had to kill Jesus. 05:23 You know, he was violating on laws, 05:25 he was starring up the people, you know, 05:26 in other words there was an awful 05:28 lot of self justification in that 05:31 which shows you the scariness of how-- 05:33 Wasn't it Caiaphas that said better that 05:34 one man should die then they should perish. 05:37 So, that's all you've here with the grand inquisitor. 05:40 So, he's saying the Christ you didn't do, 05:43 you didn't control him, so we as the church, 05:46 we're here we're gonna control them, 05:49 we're gonna give them what they need 05:50 or what they think they need and that way they'll be happy, 05:53 they'll be under our control, 05:55 so how dare you come and get in our way. 05:58 And so this is the whole thing is going on with this, 06:01 with the grand inquisitor and the whole time 06:03 Christ doesn't say a word. 06:04 He never and he rails, and he's lecturing, 06:06 and he's lecturing on and on and on. 06:08 So, what's his reply eventually? 06:10 Okay, he comes to the end. 06:12 He stand for the whole time, I mean, 06:14 you got page after page after page. 06:16 I don't remember reading it, it has been long time, 06:18 but I know you-- 06:19 Oh my goodness, it's brilliant, it's brilliant. 06:21 I remember that, I read it, well, 06:23 I've read it a while, but I come back to it. 06:25 I come back to it again and again and so 06:28 the grand inquisitor is going on and on railing 06:31 against Christ railing against Christ 06:34 and then I wish I had it for me and then, 06:36 it ends and Christ says nothing 06:40 and the grand inquisitor staring at him, 06:41 I think he says, "don't you have anything to say to me." 06:44 I can't remember how it is, but then it was 06:47 obvious to grand inquisitors done. 06:50 It says Christ comes up to him and just grabs 06:53 and kisses him on his bloodless lips 06:57 and then the grand inquisitor shocked and he steps back 07:01 and he says to Christ get out of here, 07:04 leave, go away, and don't you ever come back, 07:08 don't you ever, ever come back here 07:10 and then and Jesus leaves, amen. 07:11 Wow, wow, I mean it was really, 07:13 it was brilliantly done, it's great. 07:15 When inquisitor favor Dostoevsky in his novel, 07:19 the brothers Karamazov, I'm sure if anybody here 07:22 wanted to read or they can just Google 07:23 the grand inquisitor and you can just 07:25 read the section yourself. 07:26 You probably don't want-- I mean, if you want to read 07:28 the whole 800 pages of the brothers Karamazov 07:31 that's fine, but you can read 07:32 the grand inquisitor it stands on its own. 07:34 Recommendation to our viewers, it's not quite the same, 07:37 but it's reminding the Bible, I remember 07:39 when Jesus came before pilot. Yeah. 07:41 I think that's one of the dramatic moments of the Bible. 07:44 Here the king of the universe and the savior 07:47 sent to the world pretty much beaten and bloody 07:50 by that point is standing in front of pilot 07:52 is the cynical intellectual not a religious fanatic 07:59 like the inquisitor, but the cynical intellectual 08:03 charter to rule the country there and he says 08:06 you're the king of Jews and I love Jesus response 08:10 because giving in the dig, you know, 08:12 sure I know I deal with someone suggested to you 08:14 and then Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world, 08:18 but it was my followers would fight for now. 08:21 Yeah. And, you know, the kiss on the lips 08:24 another way to show, it's the spiritual thing, 08:25 it's nothing to do with all those arguments 08:27 and I think on religious liberty, you know, 08:30 I've been accused sometimes of taking it 08:32 to the absolute separatonism, but I think it lies 08:34 in that direction the things of the spirit 08:36 and true religious liberty is corrupted by too much 08:40 discussion of how governments work and the people control-- 08:44 You know, that's a nice principle where do you draw-- 08:46 No, no that's what all of our programs have been. 08:47 We've to bring it to the real world, 08:49 but we need to accept that these 08:52 are two very distinct spheres. 08:55 If my religion teaches me that your bedroom practicing 09:00 are gonna bring the wrath with God down on the whole country. 09:04 The whole country is gonna be punished like that 09:07 wrath job function and clan, okay. 09:10 Okay, I mean, if my religion truly teaches, you know, 09:14 I believe that my religion teaches this that way you do 09:17 in your bedroom in your home is gonna bring 09:19 the wrath of God then don't tell me that you know 09:21 that I need to kick this, you know, 09:22 that what you're doing is not just purely 09:25 drive it matter so, it gets very-- 09:27 Heavy problem with that. 09:28 The state can tell you that you do that and you know, 09:31 you'll be arrested or may be even executed yourself, 09:34 but the call of the religion is just to do it. 09:37 I don't think-- Well, then you don't have 09:40 a problem when someone says 09:41 I believe that your practice is-- 09:43 Let them try it and in a civil society 09:45 we'll give them the full penalty. This-- 09:48 Well, then I'm missing something here. 09:49 What I'll turn it around another way. 09:51 I think there is a problem with some Christians 09:53 they think particularly in the free country 09:56 like the United States, but somewhat in other countries 09:58 that you're called by God to do something 10:01 that every civil pajamas can wait here. 10:03 There are plenty of cases where the interest 10:06 of the civil pair are gonna be opposed 10:08 and you do what God calls you to do 10:10 regardless of the consequence. 10:11 Yeah, yeah, but that's on top of that I'm saying something-- 10:13 And I think there are some cases, 10:16 I don't want to agree with this, 10:18 but it comes close to it those that violently 10:23 reacted to abolition of burning clinics 10:25 and even in some cases it might be that 10:28 there is a biblical justification you remember 10:31 Phineas went in there and stuck this piece, through, 10:35 he's saying that, you're saying that not me. 10:36 It's the only thing in the Bible versus God's 10:42 endorsed him and it says that we'd right to justice forever 10:45 because he turned back the wrath of the nation. 10:47 but in a modern society that's protecting 10:49 the good of all people, it must punish rigorously 10:52 religion that acts in a dangerous 10:55 civil manner, that's fine. 10:56 That's not denying religiously, 10:59 but that just equals civil protection. 11:01 But religion should be allowed to hold whatever views 11:05 and if those views bring it 11:07 with the conflicts so be it there. 11:08 Well, I think in the end I think the point here 11:11 especially when you look at the story like 11:13 the grand inquisitor I think we could, 11:15 we could say that the important point 11:19 is that religion is something that could be 11:22 very easily abused and we don't want to abuse it. 11:26 So, we've to be careful, we've to be careful 11:28 about the powers that we grant people, 11:30 we've to be careful about how the ways we allow 11:33 ourselves to be manipulated by religious things, 11:35 but it's not very easy, but if you really want 11:38 to read something to show some of the dangers, 11:40 Dostoevskian story the grand inquisitor 11:43 and the brothers Karamazov can open your eyes 11:45 to the reality of this danger. 11:49 It's interesting that in the Bible Lucifer or Satan 11:52 is referred to as the accuser of the brethren 11:56 and on a number of cases in the Old Testament 11:59 he's figuratively and I guess literally, 12:02 but in vision shown us standing after the side 12:06 casting an expose on those that would follow God. 12:10 We need to be careful, if we don't 12:12 as to follow worship God slip into that row 12:16 know that we allow the state to slip into that role 12:20 as a proxy for the church doing fullest conformity. 12:23 I've been interested to read recently a book on 12:27 America's experiment with torture following nine eleven 12:31 the book called the dark side and it impressed itself 12:35 upon me that norms of international behavior 12:39 as well as Christian norms of respect for an individual 12:42 have been swept aside with the expediency 12:45 at the moment to demand some sort of civil orthodoxy 12:49 people are tortured, but then and ensured 12:51 their lives sometimes over that inch. 12:55 Religious freedom is very important, 12:57 there can be no convulsion in matters of faith. 13:00 Christ demands that decency demands of law demand. 13:07 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17