Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider,
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before the break and
in fact during the break
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with guest Clifford Goldstein.
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We were talking about
philosophical viewpoint
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over discussion
of religious liberty,
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but particularly zeroing in
on Dostoevsky's, the inquisitor.
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Yeah, the grand inquisitor.
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The grand
inquisitor, the character
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of brothers Karamazov,
but this classic scene
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where Christ come back to Spain
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in the year of the
inquisition is arrested
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and then confronted by
the Torquemada was the model.
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Yeah. But-- Called the old man.
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The old man,
there is an out prison
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I remember Verdi's Don Carlos,
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that has pretty much the
same thing with the inquisitor
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there with the king justifying
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how religion is
going to control the--
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Well, as we said, I mean,
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when you had been in a religion,
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you had been in
the peoples you know,
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who we don't come whoever
win, where did we come from.
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What is the
purpose of our lives?
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What happens when we die?
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Because, you
know, the thing is hey,
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you say the life is short.
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But whatever
happens after we die
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is gonna last
the whole life along.
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Yeah. In fact, I always
slot with the late Pascal,
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you know, that 16th century,
the 17th century mystic.
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You know, basically
said, it's just hard time
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to stand on any logical person,
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does it make first and formals
to thought of what happens
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when we die and preparing for
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because death is
gonna be forever.
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Well, in reality we spend
most of life avoiding that.
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Well, that was it.
That's really what goes on.
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I think of that lying by--
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Even in religion
where it is an argument.
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Some critics of
religion point out that
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we're trying to avoid it
by positing something beyond.
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Yeah, well that's one of that.
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But, that real point
of death and even Christ
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of course on the cross.
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Aah, that was the
moment of blackness,
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you know, why we forsaken me.
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I think our organism is
not set up to comprehend it.
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I've played mental guys
before and I think my mind
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cannot really come
with the fact of not being.
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I remember reading
one time about a lecture
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when he talked about how he--
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he saw by the political
flaws for time as hard,
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since he had that only
thing people care about
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is being protective from death
and they'll have a sovereign,
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they'll give them
complete total power,
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complete total
power over everything
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as well as the
sovereign to protect this life.
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And first of at all he
saw the key things and thought
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that was way over the
top layer where the top
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till the person was confronted
by nice point in central park
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and he was to knew,
his life was in danger
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and at that
instant believe it or not,
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the teacher said this guy
of course came back to me.
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And that he is not to think
he keeps front with the knife
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and he's thinking
about the 17th century
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political
philosopher, Thomas Hobbes.
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Look a point was that
death, so the point is
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and so religion has this power
because it comes to the most
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innate needs and
that's what I believe
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in the story of
the grand inquisitor.
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He was railing against Christ,
because you've the potential,
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you've this power, you could
have commanded these people,
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you could have forced them to--
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He thought he
gave it away for free.
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There was no control with.
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You're gonna force
them to do anything
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you wanted, but
you didn't do that.
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You gave them
freedom and he says we here
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as the church and I
guess as I said in the--
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in the novel Dostoevsky
was using the grand inquisitor
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to represent the
roman catholic church
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and this was as much
reflected the Dostoevsky
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of the times that Dostoevsky,
as he lived in as a member
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of the Russian orthodox church,
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but I think that
had complied anything,
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anywhere does
even has to be religion
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any kind of appearance of power.
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So, he was really against Christ
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as well as that
you didn't do it,
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you believe it so we in
the church we're gonna do it
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and you're still so,
why have you come here.
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Why have you
come here to interfere
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with what we're
doing, because he was afraid,
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he was afraid Christ
was gonna do the same,
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you know, I think he
was afraid that because
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Christ was showing
them-- and the story of course
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this is fiction the
radical difference between
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what he is really like
and what a church was now.
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Yeah, of course this
was the same argument
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and Christ said,
when he did come to this
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as between him and
the church authorities.
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That was their objection.
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He didn't fulfill
their expectations
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or what the bizarre was and--
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and they have how
structured to protect.
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Well, they were all
hoping that the messiah
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would come and
overthrow the Romans.
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They were hoping for the--
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When I think it was a little
even more than that with the,
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with the leaders
of the San Hadrian,
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he threatened
their political power.
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Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah.
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Adopted, yeah,
because I think they were
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able to see the contrast between
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what he did and
the power that he had.
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Remember healing on
the Sabbath. Oh, yeah.
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It wasn't sanctity as
Sabbath ever concerned of that.
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They were the ones that
laid down rules of behavior
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for the Sabbath and if
people saw that their rules
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didn't need to be
obeyed they would lose power.
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In fact, I once
wrote an article one time,
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it was called uncle
and uncle Caiaphas eyes.
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And it was a letter that had,
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you know, it was obviously
fiction that Caiaphas wrote
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to her niece
explaining his justification
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for why they had to kill Jesus.
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You know, he was
violating on laws,
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he was starring up
the people, you know,
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in other words
there was an awful
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lot of self
justification in that
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which shows you
the scariness of how--
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Wasn't it Caiaphas
that said better that
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one man should die
then they should perish.
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So, that's all you've
here with the grand inquisitor.
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So, he's saying the
Christ you didn't do,
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you didn't control
him, so we as the church,
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we're here we're
gonna control them,
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we're gonna give
them what they need
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or what they think they need
and that way they'll be happy,
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they'll be under our control,
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so how dare you
come and get in our way.
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And so this is the whole
thing is going on with this,
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with the grand
inquisitor and the whole time
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Christ doesn't say a word.
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He never and he
rails, and he's lecturing,
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and he's
lecturing on and on and on.
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So, what's his reply eventually?
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Okay, he comes to the end.
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He stand for the
whole time, I mean,
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you got page
after page after page.
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I don't remember reading
it, it has been long time,
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but I know you--
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Oh my goodness, it's
brilliant, it's brilliant.
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I remember
that, I read it, well,
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I've read it a while,
but I come back to it.
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I come back to it
again and again and so
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the grand inquisitor
is going on and on railing
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against Christ
railing against Christ
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and then I wish I
had it for me and then,
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it ends and Christ says nothing
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and the grand
inquisitor staring at him,
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I think he says, "don't you
have anything to say to me."
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I can't remember how
it is, but then it was
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obvious to grand
inquisitors done.
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It says Christ comes
up to him and just grabs
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and kisses him on
his bloodless lips
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and then the grand inquisitor
shocked and he steps back
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and he says to
Christ get out of here,
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leave, go away, and
don't you ever come back,
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don't you ever,
ever come back here
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and then and Jesus leaves, amen.
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Wow, wow, I mean it was really,
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it was
brilliantly done, it's great.
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When inquisitor favor
Dostoevsky in his novel,
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the brothers Karamazov,
I'm sure if anybody here
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wanted to read or
they can just Google
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the grand
inquisitor and you can just
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read the section yourself.
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You probably don't want--
I mean, if you want to read
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the whole 800 pages
of the brothers Karamazov
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that's fine, but you can read
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the grand inquisitor
it stands on its own.
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Recommendation to our viewers,
it's not quite the same,
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but it's reminding
the Bible, I remember
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when Jesus came
before pilot. Yeah.
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I think that's one of the
dramatic moments of the Bible.
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Here the king of the
universe and the savior
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sent to the world
pretty much beaten and bloody
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by that point is
standing in front of pilot
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is the cynical intellectual
not a religious fanatic
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like the inquisitor,
but the cynical intellectual
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charter to rule the
country there and he says
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you're the king of Jews
and I love Jesus response
00:08:06.47\00:08:10.14
because giving in
the dig, you know,
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sure I know I deal with
someone suggested to you
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and then Jesus said my
kingdom is not of this world,
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but it was my
followers would fight for now.
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Yeah. And, you
know, the kiss on the lips
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another way to show,
it's the spiritual thing,
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it's nothing to do
with all those arguments
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and I think on
religious liberty, you know,
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I've been accused
sometimes of taking it
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to the absolute separatonism,
but I think it lies
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in that direction
the things of the spirit
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and true religious
liberty is corrupted by too much
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discussion of how governments
work and the people control--
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You know, that's a nice
principle where do you draw--
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No, no that's what all
of our programs have been.
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We've to bring it
to the real world,
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but we need to accept that these
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are two very distinct spheres.
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If my religion teaches me
that your bedroom practicing
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are gonna bring the wrath with
God down on the whole country.
00:09:00.92\00:09:04.46
The whole country is
gonna be punished like that
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wrath job
function and clan, okay.
00:09:07.81\00:09:10.32
Okay, I mean, if my religion
truly teaches, you know,
00:09:10.33\00:09:14.14
I believe that my religion
teaches this that way you do
00:09:14.15\00:09:17.13
in your bedroom in
your home is gonna bring
00:09:17.14\00:09:19.02
the wrath of God then
don't tell me that you know
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that I need to
kick this, you know,
00:09:21.64\00:09:22.95
that what you're
doing is not just purely
00:09:22.96\00:09:25.21
drive it matter
so, it gets very--
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Heavy problem with that.
00:09:27.32\00:09:28.59
The state can tell you
that you do that and you know,
00:09:28.60\00:09:31.88
you'll be arrested or may
be even executed yourself,
00:09:31.89\00:09:34.44
but the call of the
religion is just to do it.
00:09:34.45\00:09:37.05
I don't think--
Well, then you don't have
00:09:37.06\00:09:40.01
a problem when someone says
00:09:40.02\00:09:40.99
I believe that
your practice is--
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Let them try it
and in a civil society
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we'll give them the
full penalty. This--
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Well, then I'm
missing something here.
00:09:48.32\00:09:49.77
What I'll turn it
around another way.
00:09:49.78\00:09:51.49
I think there is a
problem with some Christians
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they think
particularly in the free country
00:09:53.66\00:09:56.41
like the United States,
but somewhat in other countries
00:09:56.42\00:09:58.85
that you're called
by God to do something
00:09:58.86\00:10:01.22
that every civil
pajamas can wait here.
00:10:01.23\00:10:03.35
There are plenty of
cases where the interest
00:10:03.36\00:10:06.21
of the civil pair
are gonna be opposed
00:10:06.22\00:10:08.30
and you do what
God calls you to do
00:10:08.31\00:10:10.36
regardless of the consequence.
00:10:10.37\00:10:11.90
Yeah, yeah, but that's on top
of that I'm saying something--
00:10:11.91\00:10:13.82
And I think
there are some cases,
00:10:13.83\00:10:16.45
I don't want to agree with this,
00:10:16.46\00:10:18.75
but it comes close to
it those that violently
00:10:18.76\00:10:23.47
reacted to
abolition of burning clinics
00:10:23.48\00:10:25.45
and even in some
cases it might be that
00:10:25.46\00:10:28.67
there is a biblical
justification you remember
00:10:28.68\00:10:31.38
Phineas went in there and
stuck this piece, through,
00:10:31.39\00:10:35.17
he's saying that,
you're saying that not me.
00:10:35.18\00:10:36.60
It's the only thing
in the Bible versus God's
00:10:36.61\00:10:39.19
endorsed him and it says that
we'd right to justice forever
00:10:42.54\00:10:45.17
because he turned back
the wrath of the nation.
00:10:45.18\00:10:47.18
but in a modern
society that's protecting
00:10:47.19\00:10:49.81
the good of all people,
it must punish rigorously
00:10:49.82\00:10:52.70
religion that
acts in a dangerous
00:10:52.71\00:10:55.43
civil manner, that's fine.
00:10:55.44\00:10:56.73
That's not denying religiously,
00:10:56.74\00:10:59.15
but that just
equals civil protection.
00:10:59.16\00:11:01.91
But religion should be
allowed to hold whatever views
00:11:01.92\00:11:05.82
and if those views bring it
00:11:05.83\00:11:07.22
with the
conflicts so be it there.
00:11:07.23\00:11:08.83
Well, I think in the
end I think the point here
00:11:08.84\00:11:11.26
especially when you
look at the story like
00:11:11.27\00:11:13.12
the grand
inquisitor I think we could,
00:11:13.13\00:11:15.96
we could say that
the important point
00:11:15.97\00:11:19.42
is that religion is
something that could be
00:11:19.43\00:11:22.05
very easily abused and
we don't want to abuse it.
00:11:22.06\00:11:26.55
So, we've to be
careful, we've to be careful
00:11:26.56\00:11:28.48
about the powers
that we grant people,
00:11:28.49\00:11:30.27
we've to be careful
about how the ways we allow
00:11:30.28\00:11:33.26
ourselves to be
manipulated by religious things,
00:11:33.27\00:11:35.81
but it's not very
easy, but if you really want
00:11:35.82\00:11:38.07
to read something to
show some of the dangers,
00:11:38.08\00:11:40.09
Dostoevskian story
the grand inquisitor
00:11:40.10\00:11:43.09
and the brothers
Karamazov can open your eyes
00:11:43.10\00:11:45.34
to the reality of this danger.
00:11:45.35\00:11:47.31
It's interesting that in
the Bible Lucifer or Satan
00:11:49.13\00:11:52.36
is referred to as the
accuser of the brethren
00:11:52.37\00:11:55.98
and on a number of
cases in the Old Testament
00:11:55.99\00:11:59.09
he's figuratively
and I guess literally,
00:11:59.10\00:12:02.39
but in vision shown us
standing after the side
00:12:02.40\00:12:06.07
casting an expose on
those that would follow God.
00:12:06.08\00:12:10.51
We need to be
careful, if we don't
00:12:10.52\00:12:12.87
as to follow worship
God slip into that row
00:12:12.88\00:12:16.48
know that we allow the
state to slip into that role
00:12:16.49\00:12:20.43
as a proxy for the
church doing fullest conformity.
00:12:20.44\00:12:23.87
I've been interested
to read recently a book on
00:12:23.88\00:12:27.11
America's experiment with
torture following nine eleven
00:12:27.12\00:12:31.40
the book called the dark
side and it impressed itself
00:12:31.41\00:12:35.52
upon me that norms of
international behavior
00:12:35.53\00:12:39.81
as well as Christian norms
of respect for an individual
00:12:39.82\00:12:42.91
have been swept
aside with the expediency
00:12:42.92\00:12:45.67
at the moment to demand
some sort of civil orthodoxy
00:12:45.68\00:12:49.48
people are
tortured, but then and ensured
00:12:49.49\00:12:51.91
their lives
sometimes over that inch.
00:12:51.92\00:12:55.55
Religious freedom
is very important,
00:12:55.56\00:12:57.66
there can be no
convulsion in matters of faith.
00:12:57.67\00:13:00.83
Christ demands that
decency demands of law demand.
00:13:00.84\00:13:05.21
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:07.20\00:13:09.94