Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Clifford Goldstein
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000179A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program 00:25 that brings you news, views, discussion, 00:27 and up-to-date information on religious liberty events. 00:31 And real discussions that bear on religious liberty 00:35 from around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:39 and my guest on the program is Clifford Goldstein. 00:42 A good friend, previous editor of Liberty magazine. 00:45 And now editor of the Sabbath School Bible lessons 00:49 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 00:52 Torture, apart from being on this program. 00:56 Yeah. I think it is a pleasure for you. 00:58 But torture has become a topic of life, 01:01 in the United States. 01:03 I never thought this would happen 01:04 because all during the cold war, you know, 01:07 whenever anyone was picked up 01:09 in the Third World Country over one of these 01:11 great power rivalry 01:14 that's being played up and how prisoners were mistreated. 01:17 You know, we claim that we don't torture. 01:19 This is unacceptable and so-- 01:21 Oh, that's naive. 01:22 Yes, well, it appears so 01:23 because since the 9/11 incident, we in the west 01:27 and in particular in the United States, 01:29 seem sort of agreeable to mistreating a radical captive 01:33 that supposedly may hold secrets 01:35 that if we can twist his thumbs tough enough, 01:37 we'll get the information. 01:38 Well, but you know, again, so-- who's for torture? 01:43 But what do you do? Here is a man. 01:45 He said he planted a bomb in a school 01:49 and 150 children are gonna be incinerated 01:54 if you don't find out where that bomb is. 01:56 And the only way that supposedly 01:58 you could get it out is to, 02:00 you know, gouge out his eyeballs or something. 02:03 What do you do? 02:04 What do you do? See it's very easy-- 02:05 That's a very hypothetical. Yeah-- 02:07 It's never ever been proven to be said. 02:08 Yeah, well, that's not the point, 02:09 I'm not here defending it, what I'm just saying is-- 02:11 That's the logic--Let's not listen to this. 02:15 It's very easy to sit from your high horse and say 02:18 but when suddenly 02:19 your responsibility is for those lives 02:21 of those people or if it was your kid, 02:23 your children were there, what would--someone said, 02:26 "They'e gonna kill your-- there is a bomb somewhere 02:28 and there's a chance that your two children 02:30 are in that school." 02:31 And maybe the only way you're gonna find out, 02:33 you know where it is or what's gonna happen 02:35 is through torture. I think some of these people 02:37 would get off their high holy horse. Well, they would. 02:39 I'm not saying I'm for it-- Would that prove it 02:41 or just show that they are fallible. 02:43 All of us-- Yeah, of course, yeah. 02:45 like I preach regularly in churches 02:47 and I preach what I believe. 02:50 But if I could only preach what I know 02:51 that I myself would prove to every degree in my life, 02:54 I never would open my mouth, 02:56 like my father, he told me they used to preach sermons 02:58 about child rearing and so on. 02:59 After he had children he shut up. But-- 03:03 Yeah it could happen that. I could see here. 03:04 I'm just kidding ya. No, I never said that. 03:06 -Yeah. -You've taken that to a level. 03:08 You know, let me-- let me actually think though-- 03:10 We need to be a little humble 03:11 about things. We're all fallible, 03:12 but there are principles that we need to maintain even as 03:16 we ourselves troubled by-- 03:18 What do they call it-- they call it... 03:19 They don't use the word torture. 03:21 What is the word, the euphemism that they use now? 03:24 There is a word that "Enhanced Interrogation." 03:27 Yeah, "Enhanced Interrogation." 03:29 But, you know, it makes me think of something else. 03:31 Well, there is-- I think what you're thinking 03:32 of is go back in history. 03:34 The inquisition really refined torture to a theological level. 03:40 They had guidebooks and handbooks 03:42 so it wasn't spontaneous. 03:45 They had to have a rationale for every step 03:47 and yet the end result was an era 03:50 of incredible physical mistreatment of people. 03:53 Yeah, it makes me think of it. 03:54 Now this is really somewhat off the theme of torture. 03:56 But it makes me think of the famous, 04:00 the famous you bring up the inquisition. 04:02 It makes me think of Fyodor Dostoevsky's 04:04 famous scene in his novel 04:07 "The Brothers Karamazov" called "The Grand Inquisitor." 04:10 Do you remember that? Oh, absolutely. 04:11 And if you remember it, of course, it is funny 04:13 'cause you got Dostoevsky. 04:14 Many people consider him 04:15 the greatest novelist of the 20th century. 04:18 Then you got "The Brothers Karamazov" 04:20 or the 19th century rather. 04:22 One of his great novels. Yeah, many consider 04:24 that the greatest novel of the 20 of the 19th-- 04:26 I keep saying it 20 or 19th century. 04:28 Well, one of the biggest "War and Peace" is-- 04:31 Yeah, well, I think, but then-- Not by him but by Tolstoy. 04:35 And then many happen to think that this chapter, 04:39 "The Grand Inquisitor" It's a very rich chapter. 04:42 Yeah, yeah that sometimes-- 04:44 Incredible interaction between the inquisitor 04:47 and the subject. But here is the story. 04:49 Here's what happens in this story 04:50 for the--listeners that don't know. 04:54 Ivan Karamazov tells the story. 04:56 The scene is set in Seville, Seville or Spain or Seville, 04:59 I don't, I'm not in picture in the pronunciation, 05:01 if you speak Spanish excuse me. 05:03 Seville Spain, which was we know 05:05 was the height of the inquisition. 05:07 And the man--the inquisitor, 05:09 they always-- I think the inquisitor 05:11 there he meant was modeled after Tomas Torquemada 05:14 that was considered the grand inquisitor. 05:16 Oh, yeah, a legendry. 05:17 And in the tale, as Dostoevsky sculpts 05:22 in Ivan's mouth Christ returns to Seville Spain. 05:27 He doesn't return, 05:28 He comes back to the world. 05:29 He comes to the world 05:31 and Seville at the height of the inquisition, okay. 05:34 And they're burning people right and left, 05:37 autodafeh, self burning or whatever that. 05:39 I forgot what that meant. Autodafeh is an active faith. 05:41 Yeah, an active faith-- yeah, okay. 05:43 And suddenly people notice there is Jesus 05:49 and everybody flocked to Jesus 05:51 and they're on the step to the big cathedral. 05:53 And they're all flocking to Christ. 05:56 And Jesus begins, you know-- I forgot exactly what it is, 05:59 He speaks some words of the Gospel. 06:02 He lays His hand on some children and heals them. 06:05 And everybody is just going, they're thrilled, 06:07 "Jesus is here, Jesus is here." 06:09 And a repeat of the Bible story 06:11 is an offense to the authority-- 06:13 Then what happens is the grand inquisitor 06:16 shows up the old man is, 06:18 I believe, how Dostoevsky called him. 06:20 The old man comes and he's watching the sea 06:25 and he's looking, he's looking 06:27 and then everybody cowers in fear before him. 06:31 They all cower because the grand inquisitor comes. 06:33 And then he orders the guards "Arrest that man." 06:36 And they arrest-- he arrests Jesus. 06:39 And he takes him down to the dungeon. 06:41 And then has a dialogue with him. 06:43 Yeah, oh, it's powerful. I mean it's definitely worth. 06:47 Anybody if you're interested 06:48 particularly in religious freedom misuse or any of it. 06:51 It's just the depth of thought of Dostoevsky. 06:54 It's astonishing that he could pour all this in. 06:57 You know, anyway he's got Jesus down in the basement 07:00 and then the grand inquisitor. Start--the old man 07:04 as they call him starts to lecture Christ. 07:07 And he goes on and the whole time Jesus never says a word. 07:11 But one of the first things he sentences, 07:13 "Why have you come back?" 07:14 You know, "Why have you come back? 07:16 And you know, we're finishing the work 07:18 that you didn't finish doing." 07:20 And then he goes on started saying you created men free. 07:23 You gave them--they don't want freedom. 07:25 You know, they want somebody to tell them what to do. 07:29 You know, you tell-- they want--you know, 07:30 you shouldn't have given them that freedom. 07:32 You made a mistake. 07:33 They need somebody to tell them what they do. 07:35 They want someone to give them their bread and their food. 07:37 This is how most religionists think today. 07:38 Yeah, yeah and then he just started 07:40 the all-time lecturing Christ, you know, 07:41 but you should have used your power more forcefully, 07:45 you know, this idea of letting people make the wrong choice. 07:47 I mean, he went on, on and on. 07:48 And there was a powerful lecture 07:50 on the whole idea of autocracy 07:53 and using the power of religion to control people 07:59 and so--and rather than using the power 08:01 and the love of God-- In the heart. 08:03 ...to--the heart and yet here it was a powerful 08:05 comet I think between religion from the heart 08:08 and religion from-- and as I said 08:09 I wish I would've thought about, 08:10 we're gonna talk about this morning. 08:11 And this is what I try to bring in, 08:14 not on this purely philosophical level. 08:16 But even dealing with religious liberty, 08:18 I've come to the conclusion 08:20 that religion is a pernicious force. 08:22 It's spirituality that we should be concerned about 08:25 but religion without spirituality 08:27 is exactly as the inquisitor thinks. 08:30 Oh, yeah, I mean, when you're dealing with-- 08:31 It's controlling, it's abusive, it's offensive 08:35 to the non-Christian or to the non-religionists. 08:37 Yeah, I think they're probably using 08:38 an example of any religion in the world 08:41 that--well, he could get into the philosophy 08:43 of Michel Foucault and the whole idea that, 08:46 you know, concepts of-- the whole concept of truth. 08:49 For Foucault, the whole consequence of Regimes of truth. 08:53 And he says there is no such thing as truth 08:55 per se, which is kind of self refuting 08:57 but that's a whole other thing. 08:58 But the pilot, what is truth. 08:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah and the whole point is with Foucault 09:01 is people come up with either political regimes of truth, 09:05 religious regimes of truth. 09:07 They use that for control, for power. 09:10 And if you've got people convinced 09:13 that they need to be a member of this church 09:15 and be a member of this organization 09:18 in order to have the grace of God bestowed upon them 09:21 or if they want to go to heaven, 09:22 they got to fall, maybe you're dealing with--you know, 09:24 look we're all afraid of death. 09:28 And none of us want to die. 09:29 And I believe that goes back to Eden. 09:31 We weren't made to die. Yeah. 09:32 We're originally created for eternal life. 09:34 So we're all scared of death. 09:36 So there's this unique craving in us for eternal life. 09:40 And of course for secularists, they say, 09:42 "Well, religion just exploits this 09:44 and it's just the human desire and there is nothing to it." 09:46 Well, may be religion exploits it but the need is there 09:49 because we're originally created 09:50 to have eternal life. Well, it has to be exploited 09:52 or controlled some way. Yeah, yeah. 09:54 Because it leads to just total depression. 09:58 So if you can control that 10:00 and if you've got the power over people telling them, 10:03 "Hey, I've got the key to your eternal life." 10:06 I was mentioning to you before the program 10:08 that just a few days ago at a restaurant 10:10 I got to talking to a young 16-year-old waiter 10:13 about religious things. I overheard the discussion. 10:16 And he was a secularist. And he did believe in this. 10:19 He wasn't dismissive or wasn't insulting of religion 10:22 but he was self sufficient. He didn't need religion. 10:26 And as you and I talked about it, 10:27 that's 'cause he's young. 10:28 And he is like 60, 70 and he's staring into the abyss. 10:33 It will be so-- how to sustain 10:35 a sort of theoretical nihilism? Of course, a lot of people do. 10:38 I mean I think I was-- Some people do. 10:40 But it has--the natural 10:41 human being is grown to word meaning in life. 10:44 I was a very big fan of Christopher Hitchens. 10:48 You know the atheist writer 10:50 and of course when he got esophageal cancer, 10:53 people were wondering would he live up, you know? 10:54 Oh, yeah, he stuck it up. 10:56 He battled that out until the end 10:58 and as far as we know he never--but yeah, 11:01 there is this unique you can--and I think 11:04 this is what the grand inquisitor was saying 11:07 that you should have used this. 11:08 But I'll quite literate at you. 11:10 Lord Byron has a poem--a dramatic poem called "Manfred" 11:13 And there is a secret of the truth 11:15 that goes to the underworld 11:16 and plays with the spirits and all the rest of it. 11:18 The very end he's plucked away sort like faux, 11:21 by these evil forces while the Abbot prays for him. 11:24 And he says, you know, "Just turn to God." 11:26 He says repent and at the end Manfred says, 11:30 "Old man!" He says, "It's not so difficult to die." 11:32 Oh, yeah. Well, I guess for some people maybe-- 11:35 People can't tough for that. 11:37 Sure, some people but I do think that--and I think 11:39 that's with the grand inquisitor. 11:42 He was sort of rallying against Christ. 11:44 You should have done this. 11:45 You should have used the power that you have. 11:47 Instead of this, you know, 11:49 doing all these kind little things 11:50 'cause people don't want that. 11:52 People want to be told what to do. 11:54 They want to be forced. 11:55 They don't wanna think for themselves, 11:57 they wanna just be manipulated. 11:59 They wanna be told that--you know 12:00 they just want their-- they want their food. 12:03 They want their shelter. They want these basic things. 12:05 They don't wanna all this other stuff 12:06 and he was rallying against the-- 12:08 It's cynical but very true comical on have much of society 12:11 and many people upright, isn't it? 12:13 And I think that was his whole point. 12:14 See Dostoevsky was a Russian orthodox. 12:17 And he did not like the Roman Catholic Church. 12:20 And so this was I think his way--part of his way 12:22 of rallying against the Roman Catholic Church. 12:25 But all other-- any power, 12:28 any power any religious power 12:29 that exploits people. This is what it's dealing with. 12:32 Isn't it the Dostoevsky is the idiot? 12:35 I think he is-- this fellow 12:37 is going towards suicide and he had this perverted concept 12:40 that in committing suicide, he literally became God. 12:43 It was in Dostoevsky's "The Possessed". 12:45 "The possessed" The possessed--you become God. 12:48 He says nobody is really a true man 12:49 until they try to commit suicide. 12:51 We'll back after the break 12:53 to further philosophize about religious freedom 12:55 from a literally point of view 12:57 but real life is what we're talking about. 12:59 We'll be back. |
Revised 2014-12-17