Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
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that brings you
news, views, discussion,
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and up-to-date information
on religious liberty events.
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And real discussions
that bear on religious liberty
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from around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the
program is Clifford Goldstein.
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A good friend, previous
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And now editor of the
Sabbath School Bible lessons
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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Torture, apart from
being on this program.
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Yeah. I think it
is a pleasure for you.
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But torture has
become a topic of life,
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in the United States.
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I never thought
this would happen
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because all during
the cold war, you know,
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whenever anyone was picked up
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in the Third World
Country over one of these
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great power rivalry
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that's being played up and
how prisoners were mistreated.
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You know, we claim
that we don't torture.
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This is unacceptable and so--
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Oh, that's naive.
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Yes, well, it appears so
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because since the 9/11
incident, we in the west
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and in particular
in the United States,
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seem sort of agreeable to
mistreating a radical captive
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that supposedly may hold secrets
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that if we can twist
his thumbs tough enough,
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we'll get the information.
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Well, but you know,
again, so-- who's for torture?
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But what do you
do? Here is a man.
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He said he
planted a bomb in a school
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and 150 children
are gonna be incinerated
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if you don't find
out where that bomb is.
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And the only way that supposedly
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you could get it out is to,
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you know, gouge out
his eyeballs or something.
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What do you do?
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What do you do?
See it's very easy--
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That's a very
hypothetical. Yeah--
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It's never ever
been proven to be said.
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Yeah, well,
that's not the point,
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I'm not here defending
it, what I'm just saying is--
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That's the
logic--Let's not listen to this.
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It's very easy to sit
from your high horse and say
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but when suddenly
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your responsibility
is for those lives
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of those people or
if it was your kid,
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your children were
there, what would--someone said,
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"They'e gonna kill
your-- there is a bomb somewhere
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and there's a chance
that your two children
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are in that school."
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And maybe the only
way you're gonna find out,
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you know where it is
or what's gonna happen
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is through torture. I
think some of these people
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would get off their high
holy horse. Well, they would.
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I'm not saying I'm for
it-- Would that prove it
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or just show that
they are fallible.
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All of us--
Yeah, of course, yeah.
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like I preach
regularly in churches
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and I preach what I believe.
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But if I could
only preach what I know
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that I myself would prove
to every degree in my life,
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I never would open my mouth,
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like my father, he told me
they used to preach sermons
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about child rearing and so on.
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After he had
children he shut up. But--
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Yeah it could happen
that. I could see here.
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I'm just kidding ya.
No, I never said that.
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-Yeah. -You've
taken that to a level.
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You know, let me-- let
me actually think though--
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We need to be a little humble
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about things.
We're all fallible,
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but there are principles
that we need to maintain even as
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we ourselves troubled by--
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What do they call
it-- they call it...
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They don't use the word torture.
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What is the word, the
euphemism that they use now?
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There is a word that
"Enhanced Interrogation."
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Yeah, "Enhanced Interrogation."
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But, you know, it makes
me think of something else.
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Well, there is-- I
think what you're thinking
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of is go back in history.
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The inquisition really refined
torture to a theological level.
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They had
guidebooks and handbooks
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so it wasn't spontaneous.
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They had to have a
rationale for every step
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and yet the end
result was an era
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of incredible physical
mistreatment of people.
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Yeah, it makes me think of it.
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Now this is really somewhat
off the theme of torture.
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But it makes me
think of the famous,
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the famous you
bring up the inquisition.
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It makes me think
of Fyodor Dostoevsky's
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famous scene in his novel
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"The Brothers Karamazov"
called "The Grand Inquisitor."
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Do you remember
that? Oh, absolutely.
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And if you remember
it, of course, it is funny
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'cause you got Dostoevsky.
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Many people consider him
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the greatest
novelist of the 20th century.
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Then you got "The
Brothers Karamazov"
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or the 19th century rather.
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One of his great
novels. Yeah, many consider
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that the greatest
novel of the 20 of the 19th--
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I keep saying it
20 or 19th century.
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Well, one of the
biggest "War and Peace" is--
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Yeah, well, I think, but then--
Not by him but by Tolstoy.
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And then many happen to
think that this chapter,
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"The Grand Inquisitor"
It's a very rich chapter.
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Yeah, yeah that sometimes--
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Incredible interaction
between the inquisitor
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and the subject.
But here is the story.
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Here's what
happens in this story
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for
the--listeners that don't know.
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Ivan Karamazov tells the story.
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The scene is set in Seville,
Seville or Spain or Seville,
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I don't, I'm not in
picture in the pronunciation,
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if you speak Spanish excuse me.
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Seville Spain, which was we know
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was the height
of the inquisition.
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And the man--the inquisitor,
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they always-- I
think the inquisitor
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there he meant was
modeled after Tomas Torquemada
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that was considered
the grand inquisitor.
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Oh, yeah, a legendry.
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And in the tale,
as Dostoevsky sculpts
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in Ivan's mouth Christ
returns to Seville Spain.
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He doesn't return,
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He comes back to the world.
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He comes to the world
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and Seville at the
height of the inquisition, okay.
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And they're burning
people right and left,
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autodafeh, self
burning or whatever that.
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I forgot what that meant.
Autodafeh is an active faith.
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Yeah, an active
faith-- yeah, okay.
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And suddenly people
notice there is Jesus
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and everybody flocked to Jesus
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and they're on the
step to the big cathedral.
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And they're all
flocking to Christ.
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And Jesus begins, you know--
I forgot exactly what it is,
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He speaks some
words of the Gospel.
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He lays His hand on
some children and heals them.
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And everybody is just
going, they're thrilled,
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"Jesus is here, Jesus is here."
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And a repeat of the Bible story
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is an offense to the authority--
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Then what happens
is the grand inquisitor
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shows up the old man is,
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I believe, how
Dostoevsky called him.
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The old man comes
and he's watching the sea
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and he's looking, he's looking
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and then everybody
cowers in fear before him.
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They all cower because
the grand inquisitor comes.
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And then he orders the
guards "Arrest that man."
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And they
arrest-- he arrests Jesus.
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And he takes him
down to the dungeon.
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And then has a
dialogue with him.
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Yeah, oh, it's powerful. I
mean it's definitely worth.
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Anybody if you're interested
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particularly in religious
freedom misuse or any of it.
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It's just the depth
of thought of Dostoevsky.
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It's astonishing that
he could pour all this in.
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You know, anyway he's got
Jesus down in the basement
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and then the grand
inquisitor. Start--the old man
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as they call him
starts to lecture Christ.
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And he goes on and the whole
time Jesus never says a word.
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But one of the
first things he sentences,
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"Why have you come back?"
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You know, "Why
have you come back?
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And you know,
we're finishing the work
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that you didn't finish doing."
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And then he goes on started
saying you created men free.
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You gave
them--they don't want freedom.
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You know, they want somebody
to tell them what to do.
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You know, you
tell-- they want--you know,
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you shouldn't have
given them that freedom.
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You made a mistake.
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They need somebody to
tell them what they do.
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They want someone to give
them their bread and their food.
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This is how most
religionists think today.
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Yeah, yeah and
then he just started
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the all-time
lecturing Christ, you know,
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but you should have used
your power more forcefully,
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you know, this idea of letting
people make the wrong choice.
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I mean, he went on, on and on.
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And there was a powerful lecture
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on the whole idea of autocracy
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and using the power of
religion to control people
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and so--and rather
than using the power
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and the love of
God-- In the heart.
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...to--the heart and
yet here it was a powerful
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comet I think between
religion from the heart
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and religion
from-- and as I said
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I wish I would've thought about,
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we're gonna talk
about this morning.
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And this is what
I try to bring in,
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not on this purely
philosophical level.
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But even dealing
with religious liberty,
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I've come to the conclusion
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that religion is
a pernicious force.
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It's spirituality that
we should be concerned about
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but religion
without spirituality
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is exactly as the
inquisitor thinks.
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Oh, yeah, I mean,
when you're dealing with--
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It's controlling, it's
abusive, it's offensive
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to the non-Christian or
to the non-religionists.
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Yeah, I think
they're probably using
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an example of any
religion in the world
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that--well, he could
get into the philosophy
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of Michel Foucault
and the whole idea that,
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you know, concepts of--
the whole concept of truth.
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For Foucault, the whole
consequence of Regimes of truth.
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And he says there is
no such thing as truth
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per se, which is
kind of self refuting
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but that's a whole other thing.
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But the pilot, what is truth.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah and the
whole point is with Foucault
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is people come up with either
political regimes of truth,
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religious regimes of truth.
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They use that for
control, for power.
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And if you've
got people convinced
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that they need to be
a member of this church
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and be a member
of this organization
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in order to have the
grace of God bestowed upon them
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or if they want to go to heaven,
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they got to fall, maybe
you're dealing with--you know,
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look we're all afraid of death.
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And none of us want to die.
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And I believe
that goes back to Eden.
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We weren't made to die. Yeah.
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We're originally
created for eternal life.
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So we're all scared of death.
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So there's this unique
craving in us for eternal life.
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And of course for
secularists, they say,
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"Well, religion
just exploits this
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and it's just the human desire
and there is nothing to it."
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Well, may be religion exploits
it but the need is there
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because we're originally created
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to have eternal life.
Well, it has to be exploited
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or controlled
some way. Yeah, yeah.
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Because it leads to
just total depression.
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So if you can control that
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and if you've got the
power over people telling them,
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"Hey, I've got the
key to your eternal life."
00:10:03.13\00:10:06.38
I was mentioning to
you before the program
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that just a few
days ago at a restaurant
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I got to talking to a
young 16-year-old waiter
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about religious things.
I overheard the discussion.
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And he was a secularist.
And he did believe in this.
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He wasn't dismissive or
wasn't insulting of religion
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but he was self sufficient.
He didn't need religion.
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And as you and
I talked about it,
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that's 'cause he's young.
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And he is like 60, 70 and
he's staring into the abyss.
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It will be so-- how to sustain
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a sort of theoretical nihilism?
Of course, a lot of people do.
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I mean I think I
was-- Some people do.
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But it has--the natural
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human being is grown
to word meaning in life.
00:10:41.55\00:10:44.17
I was a very big fan
of Christopher Hitchens.
00:10:44.18\00:10:48.17
You know the atheist writer
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and of course when he
got esophageal cancer,
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people were wondering
would he live up, you know?
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Oh, yeah, he stuck it up.
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He battled that
out until the end
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and as far as we
know he never--but yeah,
00:10:58.67\00:11:01.49
there is this
unique you can--and I think
00:11:01.50\00:11:04.94
this is what the
grand inquisitor was saying
00:11:04.95\00:11:07.22
that you should have used this.
00:11:07.23\00:11:08.29
But I'll quite literate at you.
00:11:08.30\00:11:10.17
Lord Byron has a poem--a
dramatic poem called "Manfred"
00:11:10.18\00:11:13.43
And there is a
secret of the truth
00:11:13.44\00:11:15.58
that goes to the underworld
00:11:15.59\00:11:16.79
and plays with the
spirits and all the rest of it.
00:11:16.80\00:11:18.41
The very end he's
plucked away sort like faux,
00:11:18.42\00:11:21.21
by these evil forces
while the Abbot prays for him.
00:11:21.22\00:11:24.36
And he says, you
know, "Just turn to God."
00:11:24.37\00:11:26.40
He says repent and
at the end Manfred says,
00:11:26.41\00:11:30.41
"Old man!" He says,
"It's not so difficult to die."
00:11:30.42\00:11:32.94
Oh, yeah. Well, I
guess for some people maybe--
00:11:32.95\00:11:35.88
People can't tough for that.
00:11:35.89\00:11:37.22
Sure, some people but I
do think that--and I think
00:11:37.23\00:11:39.30
that's with the
grand inquisitor.
00:11:39.31\00:11:42.13
He was sort of
rallying against Christ.
00:11:42.14\00:11:44.85
You should have done this.
00:11:44.86\00:11:45.90
You should have used
the power that you have.
00:11:45.91\00:11:47.80
Instead of this, you know,
00:11:47.81\00:11:49.03
doing all these
kind little things
00:11:49.04\00:11:50.90
'cause people don't want that.
00:11:50.91\00:11:52.36
People want to
be told what to do.
00:11:52.37\00:11:54.55
They want to be forced.
00:11:54.56\00:11:55.78
They don't wanna
think for themselves,
00:11:55.79\00:11:57.59
they wanna just be manipulated.
00:11:57.60\00:11:59.44
They wanna be
told that--you know
00:11:59.45\00:12:00.67
they just want
their-- they want their food.
00:12:00.68\00:12:02.99
They want their shelter.
They want these basic things.
00:12:03.00\00:12:05.56
They don't wanna
all this other stuff
00:12:05.57\00:12:06.87
and he was
rallying against the--
00:12:06.88\00:12:08.08
It's cynical but very true
comical on have much of society
00:12:08.09\00:12:11.92
and many people
upright, isn't it?
00:12:11.93\00:12:13.02
And I think that
was his whole point.
00:12:13.03\00:12:14.33
See Dostoevsky was
a Russian orthodox.
00:12:14.34\00:12:17.50
And he did not like
the Roman Catholic Church.
00:12:17.51\00:12:20.36
And so this was I think
his way--part of his way
00:12:20.37\00:12:22.80
of rallying against
the Roman Catholic Church.
00:12:22.81\00:12:25.73
But all other-- any power,
00:12:25.74\00:12:28.12
any power any religious power
00:12:28.13\00:12:29.88
that exploits people.
This is what it's dealing with.
00:12:29.89\00:12:32.61
Isn't it the
Dostoevsky is the idiot?
00:12:32.62\00:12:35.10
I think he is-- this fellow
00:12:35.11\00:12:37.22
is going towards suicide and
he had this perverted concept
00:12:37.23\00:12:40.91
that in committing suicide,
he literally became God.
00:12:40.92\00:12:43.70
It was in
Dostoevsky's "The Possessed".
00:12:43.71\00:12:45.60
"The possessed" The
possessed--you become God.
00:12:45.61\00:12:48.40
He says nobody
is really a true man
00:12:48.41\00:12:49.81
until they try
to commit suicide.
00:12:49.82\00:12:51.53
We'll back after the break
00:12:51.54\00:12:53.36
to further philosophize
about religious freedom
00:12:53.37\00:12:55.94
from a literally point of view
00:12:55.95\00:12:57.70
but real life is
what we're talking about.
00:12:57.71\00:12:59.65
We'll be back.
00:12:59.66\00:13:00.81