Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is a program bringing
you news, views, discussion,
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and information on
religious liberty issues
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around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine
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and my guest on this
program is Clifford Goldstein.
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Hi, Lincoln. He's gonna be
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a handful I can tell.
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Clifford was the previous
editor of Liberty magazine
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but for some years now
what about 14 years, 13 years?
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Yeah, 13 years.
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You've been editing the
Sabbath School Bible study
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lessons for the world
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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A job that should give
you medals for bravery because
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as you can probably
tell us you get people
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sniping at you a lot.
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But it's in my view
an unparallel opportunity
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to nurture a world, doctoral
view point of Adventism.
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Well, if there is someone
that needs to be constantly
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patted on the back and told
that how great you're doing,
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it's not the job
for you. Trust me.
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Well, I know you
get a lot of that too.
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But anyhow on religious liberty
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you still remember
some of it but I know
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one thing you
know very well because
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your recently did an
article for liberty magazine
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that I think you
told me was fun writing
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because its one of
the more bizarre story
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I've seen in years.
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Well I think I
titled it, what I called,
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"Zombie Muhammad and
the parading atheists
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of
Mechanicsville, Pennsylvania."
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And newspaper
articles had much the same
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sort of approach, didn't they?
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Well, what it was,
was they were having
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a Halloween parade--
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And this was just
only few months ago.
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Yeah, last October,
having a Halloween parade
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and some group
calling themselves
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the parading atheists of
Mechanicsville, Pennsylvania,
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decided--one of them
dressed up as a zombie pope
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and the other one
dressed up as zombieMuhammad.
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You got to wonder
what somebody is thinking
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in this day and age to do that.
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But anyway they go
down, they're parading down
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the street and I
think they purposely,
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some of these extreme atheist--
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They wanted to be insulting.
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They wanted to be insulting.
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You know a zombie
pope, a zombie Muhammad,
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how did they--they
purposely, but this is America--
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First amendment, right?
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This is America and if you want
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there's nothing in the
constitution that protects
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people from being offended.
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You know the
whole free speech clause
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doesn't mean anything
if you can't offend people.
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You know, I mean there's always,
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there are limits to free speech.
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Now was anyone offended?
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Well, yeah,
exactly there was, yeah.
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I am sure there are
lot of people offended,
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sure some Catholics
but there was apparently
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some Muslim man, I
can't even remember his name,
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I can't pronounce
it who supposedly got
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in an altercation
with zombie Muhammad.
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You can see it on Youtube.
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Yeah, but it's very grainy.
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You can't tell what's going on.
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Yes, you don't know
if he laid hands on him.
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Yes, so the point is this
guy, this parading Atheists
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of Mechanicsville, Pennsylvania
dressed up as Muhammad zombie,
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Muhammad zombie goes down.
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He had a green
face as I remember.
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And he is going I am
Muhammad, risen from,
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zombie from the dead
or some inane idiocy.
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And he offends this
Muslim. They get into tussle.
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The Muslim is arrested,
okay? Okay, that's fine.
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That's understandable, you know,
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even if somebody
offends you, you're not allowed
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to supposedly
assault them or whatever.
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So anyway but that
might have not gone anyway
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but it gets to the court.
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It gets to the court.
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Yeah, and this
is where of course
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the news media puts a spin on it
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and the judge, I forgot
what's his name, Mark Martin.
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I think it was
Judge Mark Martin,
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he basically throws
the case out and he just--
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He said there
wasn't enough evidence.
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Yeah, the bottom line was
he says there wasn't enough
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evidence of an assault.
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They looked at the evidence.
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They had
testimony from other people,
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whatever it was, I don't
know all the intricacies of it
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but he didn't have
enough evidence he felt for,
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you know, to go anywhere.
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That would have been fine too.
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But then apparently the
judge decided to take it
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upon himself to give a
lecture to the plaintiff.
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I forgot the guy's
name, the one who dressed
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as zombie Muhammad
and really the judge would
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have been better off to
have kept his mouth shut.
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Because he started
saying, our founding fathers
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didn't--You know,
this was very offensive,
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you were purposely offensive.
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I used to live in
Muslim countries, I know--
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He says first
amendment is enough
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but you've gone beyond.
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Yeah you've gone
beyond and he read this guy
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and then of course the
rumor even came out too
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that the judge
himself was a Muslim,
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which turned out to be a lie.
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He had been--he was a
Lutheran and you look at the guy
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he didn't look like a Muslim.
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He looked like a
Lutheran or a Methodist
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or something but--
He was on two military--
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He did two or three--
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I think Afghanistan and Iraq.
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And he was going back,
so that's where I think
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he got his sensitivity to
Islamic, but the point was
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the judge made this mistake
and he was going off and off
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about--on and on about
the founders didn't want,
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didn't mean free
speech to be offensive
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to so on and
that's what made the news.
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And he tells this
guy, he says this country
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you'd be killed for
doing that, which is true.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But you know, what's
that got to do with America?
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You're not killed for
first amendment rights here.
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Yeah, wonder what
was the whole point?
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We live in America.
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We don't live in Afghanistan.
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We don't live in Saudi Arabia.
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You are allowed to be offensive,
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so I think he
totally missed the point.
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You know if he
would have just voted--
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I mean ruled that way
it would have been fine
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but the news media of
course they hyped it up.
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You see the headlines,
"Sharia Law in Pennsylvania"
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you know and this kind
of silliness and so forth,
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but it really was--I think
this was a very interesting
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mix of religious freedom
thought it was really more--
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it was just really in many
ways it was a free speech case.
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It was a free speech
case, because the judge totally,
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I mean I remember even when
I was working on the article,
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I took the judge
to task, you know,
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say you're not
allowed to be offensive.
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Why do you think of all people,
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the horrible A.C.L.U., many
people you know the A.C.L.U.
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It's a curse you know A.C.L.U.
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Many people don't realize
that a lot of the freedoms,
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a lot of the religious
freedoms that we have today
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that we take for granted
it was because the A.C.L.U.
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went to court
battling for those freedoms.
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Sure they take positions
on things how to offend people
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but what they did
was the A.C.L.U.--
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number of years
ago in Skokie, Illinois
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where there are a lot
of Holocaust survivors--
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Yeah, I remember
that case very well.
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Some bunch of
jerks, American Nazis,
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they wanted to
march in Skokie purposely
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because they knew they
are Holocaust survivors.
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Just to offend them.
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And they wanted to--you
know, people wanted to stop it
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and they had a judge
put in a--temporary junction
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on it and the A.C.L.U.
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went to court to defend
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the right of the Nazis to march.
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And people were horrified
but that's not the point.
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They were
looking at the principle.
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They were
looking at the principle.
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If you--if speech that
is just offensive is a rule
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that nobody can say anything.
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Well, the point to the
first amendment is precisely
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to protect offensive speech.
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Yeah, of course.
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If it's not offensive you
don't need a first amendment.
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Everyone will be happy
with it, non-offensive speech.
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I mean it
was--especially if you go back
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and you look at we
mention in another program
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the political, the
vitriol, we got nothing.
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The patch today, the super
patch and L.B.J.' s daisy ad.
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They saw that was the beginning
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of negative
campaigning, the daisy ad.
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That was nothing compare to
what was going on back then.
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It does seem like a
lot of political speech.
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This is off the topic a bit
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but heads to a
defamation of character.
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Well but, you know,
it's yeah, that's the way.
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And I guess it
is a public person--
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As much as they say they
don't want to go negative,
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they want to
win, they want to win
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and they're gonna go--
who can forget Willie Horton?
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And Willie Horton and
what was it Lee Atwater
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said I am gonna
make Willie Horton
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Michael Dukakis' running mate.
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And as stupid and as
evil and as bad as it was,
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it worked and when--
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By the way before he
died Lee Atwater apologized--.
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Oh, yeah, well,
yeah, of course that fine,
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that's a separate
issue but it still, it works,
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I mean Romney went
ballistic, you know,
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when Newt won those
other things that Romney
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didn't expect, but
they went ballistic on him.
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And you know the
negative campaigning accused him
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of a lot of stupid
things and some of the stuff
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they got coming
out against Obama.
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See it doesn't
matter if it's not true.
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What matter in the day and age
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of sound bytes,
will it turn voters away
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from one and get
you to vote other.
00:08:53.45\00:08:55.47
And this is
again, this is the limits
00:08:55.48\00:08:57.05
of the whole democratic process.
00:08:57.06\00:08:59.51
It's a very flawed and
the money that's involved
00:08:59.52\00:09:01.69
but anyway the upshot of it
was if we go back to the case,
00:09:01.70\00:09:04.65
there are limits on free speech.
00:09:04.66\00:09:06.33
You know the famous shrink case
00:09:06.34\00:09:07.85
where the you
know the judge said
00:09:07.86\00:09:08.85
your free speech
doesn't allow you to shout,
00:09:08.86\00:09:11.86
fire in a crowded movie theater
00:09:11.87\00:09:14.32
and you know if you
work for the government
00:09:14.33\00:09:16.01
you sign things believe
me, the place where I live,
00:09:16.02\00:09:18.70
I know these people
they are not allowed to talk
00:09:18.71\00:09:20.95
about what they do
for the government--
00:09:20.96\00:09:22.67
I think the zombie
Muhammad one was interesting
00:09:22.68\00:09:24.82
not so much that he was
setting an illegal precedent,
00:09:24.83\00:09:27.23
It was the just ludicrousness
of the whole thing.
00:09:27.24\00:09:29.06
We'll visit that in a minute.
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The Supreme Court
recently a very much affirm
00:09:30.59\00:09:32.37
free speech but I
think it intersects
00:09:32.38\00:09:34.80
what we've seen recently with
the Danish cartoon controversy,
00:09:34.81\00:09:39.67
the burning of the
Quran or the disposing
00:09:39.68\00:09:41.95
of the Qurans in Afghanistan,
00:09:41.96\00:09:43.52
the religious
violence that comes
00:09:43.53\00:09:46.28
from the defamation of
religion or a slight taking.
00:09:46.29\00:09:50.66
Well, here it was
intended to slide.
00:09:50.67\00:09:52.43
It was an insult to
religious sensibilities--
00:09:52.44\00:09:54.58
But the point is--
00:09:54.59\00:09:55.58
That protected
under free speech.
00:09:55.59\00:09:57.34
But this is America
we're allowed to do that.
00:09:57.35\00:10:00.01
And for the judge, I
don't know what he was thinking
00:10:00.02\00:10:02.84
to sit there and say,
you know, in other countries
00:10:02.85\00:10:05.50
you would be killed, but judge
00:10:05.51\00:10:06.86
what that has to do
we-- this is America.
00:10:06.87\00:10:08.98
I've seen him on
Talking Heads on TV
00:10:08.99\00:10:11.22
and he is pretty
much apologizing--
00:10:11.23\00:10:12.76
The Judge? Oh, yeah.
00:10:12.77\00:10:13.76
He know that he was-- Yeah.
00:10:13.77\00:10:15.11
I mean I wrote in the article--
00:10:15.12\00:10:16.53
He didn't expect the
national media to pick up--
00:10:16.54\00:10:18.49
In the article I went
and even though I said
00:10:18.50\00:10:20.86
he was wrong on that, I said,
00:10:20.87\00:10:22.10
look the guy is not a Muslim,
00:10:22.11\00:10:23.54
cut him some slack you
know, he served this country--
00:10:23.55\00:10:26.00
And he's
received death threats--
00:10:26.01\00:10:27.44
Yeah. Yeah. He personally
feels frightened about it.
00:10:27.45\00:10:29.31
That shows the
extremism on you know I am sure
00:10:29.32\00:10:32.58
some good red
blooded American Protestant
00:10:32.59\00:10:34.72
or Catholic boys were gonna--
00:10:34.73\00:10:36.59
you know try to do this judge in
00:10:36.60\00:10:38.61
because all right
he made a mistake,
00:10:38.62\00:10:39.74
all right, he's a
judge, he's not infallible.
00:10:39.75\00:10:41.84
Well, they thought
he was a Muslim said--
00:10:41.85\00:10:42.99
Yeah, that was because he said
00:10:43.00\00:10:44.22
at the one point in
transcript or something,
00:10:44.23\00:10:46.21
if I am a Muslim
I would find this,
00:10:46.22\00:10:48.60
which again is
totally irrelevant.
00:10:48.61\00:10:50.05
I don't know why he did it
but the transcript went out.
00:10:50.06\00:10:52.33
He said he's a Muslim.
00:10:52.34\00:10:54.07
So you got, you
know a guy holding a sign
00:10:54.08\00:10:57.60
is attacked by a
Muslim and then the judge
00:10:57.61\00:10:59.97
who's supposedly was a Muslim
00:10:59.98\00:11:02.36
lets the guy off and
then lectures the guy
00:11:02.37\00:11:04.37
with the sign, I mean
again this is easy to see,
00:11:04.38\00:11:05.95
this is how the irresponsibility
of the American press.
00:11:05.96\00:11:10.25
And I am a
writer but I understand,
00:11:10.26\00:11:13.50
you see how
totally irresponsible
00:11:13.51\00:11:17.11
a lot of the America media.
00:11:17.12\00:11:18.85
As Rush calls drive by media
00:11:18.86\00:11:21.87
and I think Rush is
a 100% correct on that.
00:11:21.88\00:11:24.95
And as one of the
drive by shooters himself,
00:11:24.96\00:11:26.16
Rush Limbaugh.
00:11:26.17\00:11:27.20
But on this case
we need to leave it
00:11:27.21\00:11:29.06
on a clear legal
level, the Supreme Court
00:11:29.07\00:11:31.44
recently in
another free speech case
00:11:31.45\00:11:34.18
where this church out
of Oklahoma, wasn't it?
00:11:34.19\00:11:36.42
Oh, Phelps, those wackos, oh--
00:11:36.43\00:11:40.66
And a military
funeral particularly--
00:11:40.67\00:11:42.24
Fred Phelps.
00:11:42.25\00:11:43.91
They were screaming abusive
of the family of dead soldiers--
00:11:43.92\00:11:47.64
God hates fags and
God is killing these,
00:11:47.65\00:11:49.66
these people were
dying because--your son died
00:11:49.67\00:11:52.46
in Iraq, your son
died in Afghanistan--
00:11:52.47\00:11:55.10
Because God's
vengeance on the country.
00:11:55.11\00:11:57.14
And they got--they're
standing at military funerals
00:11:57.15\00:12:00.63
with holding up you know
saying, God killed your son,
00:12:00.64\00:12:03.76
It was a
shocking social Faux Pas--
00:12:03.77\00:12:06.06
And it's horrible, of course--
00:12:06.07\00:12:07.06
But the Supreme Court said
they have the right to do it,
00:12:07.07\00:12:09.26
it's as offensive as it is.
00:12:09.27\00:12:11.33
Yeah, that's the
amazing think about free speech,
00:12:11.34\00:12:13.75
a lot of us are offended
by it but when the time comes
00:12:13.76\00:12:17.32
you know when we
want to say something,
00:12:17.33\00:12:19.43
we have our
rights to be defended.
00:12:19.44\00:12:21.02
It's brilliant. Yes.
00:12:21.03\00:12:22.34
So I was very happy
the supreme court did that
00:12:22.35\00:12:23.90
because its not
that many years ago
00:12:23.91\00:12:26.91
when President
Bush was in office,
00:12:26.92\00:12:29.34
the free speak
had become a mockery
00:12:29.35\00:12:31.66
because if you wanted
to demonstrate against
00:12:31.67\00:12:33.01
the president, there
was a roped off area,
00:12:33.02\00:12:34.72
up to two miles
away from the motorcade
00:12:34.73\00:12:37.05
called the free
speech zone, anything but.
00:12:37.06\00:12:39.48
Well yeah, I, you
know, again free speech--
00:12:39.49\00:12:42.26
Well, we can dismiss
it now as an aberration
00:12:42.27\00:12:44.29
but I think the
Supreme Court's decision
00:12:44.30\00:12:46.91
fairly recently
is a good restatement
00:12:46.92\00:12:50.06
of a valid
principle which undergoes
00:12:50.07\00:12:52.15
the rights of religious liberty.
00:12:52.16\00:12:53.69
We will be back
after a short break
00:12:53.70\00:12:55.20
to continue this discussion
guest Clifford Goldstein.
00:12:55.21\00:12:58.07