Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Clifford Goldstein
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000177B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break with guest Clifford Goldstein 00:10 we were talking about some recent 00:14 political curiosities in the republican 00:17 presidential eliminations or primaries. 00:21 But it's not just in the United States, 00:23 as I read my newspapers, you know, there's elections, 00:26 you know, the places like in Egypt. 00:29 There has been a social upheaval there 00:32 and, and at first people thought 00:33 this was the twitter revolution 00:34 and young people just civil idealism, 00:38 but its more and more become obvious, isn't it? 00:40 That there is a religious agenda 00:44 and that the Muslim brotherhood that Mubarak was, 00:45 associate against is not just the only problem. 00:50 In fact to me, hasn't it struck you as odd, 00:53 that lot of the commentators now are clinging 00:56 to the Muslim brotherhood as they are security 00:59 for some sort of normalcy that wild radical ones 01:02 that are taking over beyond that. 01:04 Well, it shows. Again, we talked about 01:05 how things changed when the Muslim Brotherhood 01:07 is now seen as the moderates. 01:08 I know because they-- 01:09 They're now seen as the moderates. 01:10 They've the ideological roots of Al-Qaeda 01:12 and the whole thing. Yeah. 01:13 Well, I think what you're saying, 01:15 I was you, I maybe it was my age 01:17 or whatever, but I was very skeptical-- Yeah. 01:19 The Arab spring right from the beginning 01:21 because look what happen many, many, it was Algeria 01:25 where 10, 15 years ago they were gonna have free elections. 01:28 So what happens three elections 01:30 and it looks like the Islamists are going to win. 01:33 The military stages are cool, crushes it 01:36 and America with all this talk about democracy, 01:38 democracy, democracy, we never said a word. 01:40 And so see democracy, you know, I often tell people, 01:45 you know, it was Plato who once railed against democracy. 01:48 And--and think about it for a minute. 01:52 You have like GATT, okay the GATT tree, the NAFTA. 01:56 What does a shoemaker or what does a truck driver 02:00 or what does a doctor know about GATT and NAFTA 02:03 and you got all these people gonna vote, you know, 02:05 based on the stuff where they don't know 02:07 anything about it. 02:08 And it took the American experiment a law-- 02:11 our constitution was originally written to limit-- 02:14 Absolutely, I was gonna say that. 02:15 --to limit democracy, to limit the power of the mob. 02:18 This was a representative government 02:20 of the United States. 02:21 They were actually rather fearful of pure democracy. 02:24 And look what it took. Look at the whole slavery. 02:28 We bemoaned slavery. "Hey, that was democratic America." 02:31 Absolutely. Putting back, the Jim Caldwell was slammed. 02:34 They put it another way-- It was all democratic. 02:35 Majoritarian viewpoints, it will lead you to the-- 02:39 to the rule of the mob. 02:40 And this is what many of the framers were-- 02:42 Well that's why there is saying-- 02:43 But you've, you've thrown, even I talk a lot 02:46 but I've never heard you mentioned Plato on democracy. 02:49 What did he say? 02:50 Well, he railed, well Plato railed against democracy. 02:52 He railed against anarchy. 02:54 He railed against a lot of different, 02:56 and tyranny was the worse. 02:58 Well, of course, in his republic, you know-- 02:59 He was angry-- 03:00 Complex, systematically he had a rule 03:02 that was disinterested but-- Yeah-- 03:04 A tight without a special interest in gaining it. 03:06 Yeah, he was an ideal. 03:07 He was up in the cloud somewhere, but Plato, 03:10 he was angry with the democracy 'cause it was democracy 03:13 that put to death his beloved teacher, Socrates. 03:15 It was but--but his point, he had a point, 03:19 where do you get the mob? 03:22 Where do you get a group of people voting on things 03:25 that they're not experts? 03:26 And that's why he wanted-- he had this whole envision, 03:29 this whole idea of the philosopher king. 03:33 And by the way, Plato was for women wooing. 03:35 Plato was women. 03:36 He said you take the brightest and best and you educate them 03:40 and you train them and these become your rulers. 03:44 These becomes your-- 03:45 I remember, it's been year since I studied 03:47 that his philosopher king, he was trained 03:49 to be king till he was 40. 03:50 He would rule till he was 80 and then be killed. 03:52 Yeah, well, I say perhaps he was radical. 03:54 Nobody takes him seriously. Nobody takes him seriously. 03:57 And forbidden to own property. 03:58 Yeah. Yeah, because they don't want any-- 04:00 they want everything taken care of, I mean, 04:02 it was an ideal, "ideal." 04:04 I mean it doesn't work that way--way in reality, 04:06 but the point is look at the American experiment. 04:10 Look at how long it took us, 04:11 I mean we were well into our democracy. 04:14 We were into 1960s, and it took 04:17 the most undemocratic branch of the government, 04:19 the U.S Supreme Court which is decidedly out 04:23 of the democratic process to desegregate the school-- 04:26 Doing something which the American democratic system-- 04:30 They were going against the majority view at that time. 04:31 Yeah. They would not do on their own. 04:33 So--so the point is, it's taken us all this time 04:36 and then you go to these other countries. 04:39 Now look at, they had free elections in Gaza who came in, 04:41 Hamas Yeah, yeah. 04:43 Well, I think U.S foreign policy 04:45 has taken--policy makers have taken a note of that. 04:48 Yeah, well that 's the point. 04:49 They're gonna lit them up again. 04:50 So, but I think that's what you're saying 04:51 in Egypt as well. 04:52 I read a poll somewhere in Linkedin and they said, 04:53 Egypt, 80% of Egyptians somewhere said a person 04:58 should not be allowed to change their religion. 05:00 Now if this is democracy, if they vote that in 05:03 who are we to stick on-- 05:04 I think it was 80, yeah. 05:06 80 or 85% of the-- the Islamic population 05:11 which is about 80% of the population 05:13 said that they would support death penalty for-- 05:16 Yeah, yeah. But it's democracy. 05:17 So why--why should we complain? 05:18 Democracy that was the whole idea-- 05:21 The Iraq war, this whole idea we're gonna go. 05:23 See there's a big mistake that people make. 05:27 This all and--and it's very naive. 05:30 Unfortunately, we had a president that got us 05:32 in a war over this idea, is the idea that democracy 05:36 you equate democracy with freedom. 05:39 It's--they've nothing in common, not in themselves. 05:42 You have a 100 people, 98% of them vote to oppress 2% 05:47 or 51 % vote to oppress for 49%. 05:50 That's not freedom. Well, at that time what 05:51 I thought we should have emphasized 05:52 with self-determination. That's a little different. 05:54 But if they self-determine, we want to--we want to-- 05:57 But you don't want the majoritarian rule. 05:59 We wanna repressive Islamic fundamental state-- 06:02 And I need to throw in an ad for religious liberty that's 06:04 the genius of--of the separation of church's estate 06:07 and the true religious liberty concept 06:09 that you will protect the right of a minority. 06:12 Even a minority that you disliked intensely-- 06:14 That's been the brilliance of the American. 06:16 That's the brilliance and the beauty 06:18 and the rarity of the whole American-- 06:21 But let me get back to Plato. 06:23 You got my attention because I think we're falling 06:28 into a platonic concept or a Greek concept of-- 06:33 of the will of the voters because the Greek idea, 06:35 as you well know, was the goodness, 06:37 virtue and knowledge is inherent in the individual. 06:40 And through learning or voting process you bring that out. 06:45 You could educate them. 06:46 You could educate and bring that out. 06:47 And that's just goes counter directly framers 06:49 of the U.S. Constitution the-- the fathers of the republic, 06:54 they were deeply suspicious of the natural inclinations 06:57 of an uninformed Electra. Well, yeah. 06:59 Well, Electra has to be informed. 07:00 It doesn't inherently know anything. 07:03 Well, I think it was Madison once said, "If men were angels 07:06 we wouldn't need a constitution." 07:09 They wanted very much. 07:10 They believed that a demo-- like in all a monarchy 07:14 was ruled by the people had to love the king. 07:17 You know, and tyranny was ruled by fear. 07:20 They had to fear the king. 07:22 And the whole point of democracy 07:23 was you need an educated people who understood 07:27 the issues and they were quite literate back then. 07:29 And they read an awful lot back then. 07:30 And curiously enough even the-- 07:32 There was much more detailed-- 07:33 Even the Greek democracy in essence 07:35 had that idea because it was not all people 07:37 that could vote-- Oh, are you kidding me? 07:38 It is only the educated landowning-- 07:40 It was the male--male, I think the male landowners 07:45 or whatever you had-- the woman 07:47 It's before women learned how to think-- 07:48 The women had nothing in ancient Greek. 07:50 The women had nothing 07:51 and you had a vast contention of slaves. 07:53 Though the slaves back then were basically the people 07:55 who lost wars, they took them into captivity. 07:58 Poor landless people. 07:59 It was a small--it was a small, I think, 08:00 maybe they were may be 50,000 08:03 in Athens at the height of, you know, free, total free men. 08:06 But they would all get together, 08:08 a vast majority was like almost the pure democracy. 08:10 They'd all get together in the square 08:12 and they'd raise their hands. 08:13 It's the Town Hall meeting type. 08:14 There, and they'd get vote on it, 08:16 but of course it didn't work out so great for them 08:18 either the whole place though. 08:19 But I--I really have a deep burden that people understand 08:21 this philosophy and a lot of modern education is falling 08:25 into that same mistake, the idea that 08:27 you're drawing out within. 08:28 Yeah. What does the Bible say? 08:30 Man is-- Oh, yeah. 08:32 "That the thoughts of the heart, surmises 08:34 of the heart of the evil continually." 08:35 Yeah. Oh, yeah. 08:37 So we need to be educated in many directions morally 08:39 and even just practically speaking on how to govern. 08:43 I mean, I remember reading when in the Second World War 08:45 some of these Iron Sorts grouping, 08:47 the groups that follow the-- 08:49 The killing squads. Yeah. 08:50 I remember reading some of the people 08:52 were highly educated. 08:53 Look some of the Nazis were. 08:55 You know, Germany was the apex of civilization at that time, 08:59 very educated, education ended up. 09:01 Education is a neutral thing. 09:03 You could educate somebody in a very bad way 09:05 or in a good way, but all the education 09:07 the world doesn't change the character. 09:09 It doesn't change-- The natural inclination, yeah. 09:10 I think the founding fathers even though they were despite 09:13 all the propaganda they weren't these 09:15 devout religious Christians. 09:16 They all came out of a Christian-- 09:18 They share--they share the morality that's-- 09:21 And I think it was pretty much understood 09:23 and I think here's what Christianity is, 09:26 you know, someone said, 09:27 "You don't need the one Christian doctor 09:29 and you don't need to take on faith 09:30 as sinful human-- sinful human nature." 09:34 And so I think they understood that. 09:35 And that's why you've the separation of powers. 09:38 That's why you've the three branches 09:39 of government to keep an eye on each other. 09:41 They basically wanted the system that was stripping 09:43 itself up so often that it could do little more 09:46 than carry on basic business and--and implement 09:49 the constitutional mandate. 09:50 Sure. Sure. 09:52 Well, as I get, it's still amazing after all these years 09:54 that we're still here and the constitution is still intact. 09:57 It's an amazing testimony to the fourth order 10:00 of the framers. 10:02 Yes. 10:03 And we hope it continues from the point 10:04 of religious freedom because that--that is-- 10:06 Yeah, that's the central freedom. 10:07 You lose that you lose that. 10:08 Absolutely. 10:09 As Hillary Clinton who came and spoke one--one 10:11 of the Adventists, she pointed to us, 10:13 she says, "religious freedom 10:14 is like the litmus test of civil liberties." 10:16 Sure. 10:17 If--if religious liberty is constricted, 10:19 everything else's a suspect. 10:20 Yeah. Yeah. 10:21 And so I've turned that on its head, 10:24 and we will guard religious liberty 10:26 and--and maybe the rest of it would take of itself. 10:31 Where do we go from here? Yeah. 10:33 You looked like I need to spark you on something. 10:34 Yeah, obviously let you go. 10:35 Well, no, that's, it's crucial though 10:38 because you're dealing with people's 10:40 most basic beliefs, religion and--and it's 10:44 very easy not to take, you know, somebody can have 10:46 a religious belief that I think is absolute nonsense. 10:49 You know, ludicrous. 10:50 I wonder how can any intelligent person, 10:52 anybody with a room temperature IQ believe that, 10:55 but if you are willing to protect that 10:59 something like that, you know, 11:00 it's easy to protect your right, you know-- 11:02 And it's worth remembering, someone else thinks 11:04 the same of your viewpoint. 11:05 Yeah. That's the beauty of it. 11:06 I mean, if you're willing to protect the absurd 11:09 even the most absurd views of people, 11:12 the most ludicrous beliefs, you know, 11:14 and so of course, you know, as you know better 11:16 than I do 'cause I forgotten all this. 11:17 There are limits as to how far we go to, 11:19 you know, allow people to practice their beliefs 11:21 and that gets a whole other area-- 11:23 Well, the limits have to do with--with behavior 11:25 that's criminal or-or-- 11:27 Sure. 11:28 Or socially disallowed, that's apart from religion. 11:30 Religion can't cross you into lines of criminality 11:33 and abuse of other people. 11:34 Yeah. 11:35 Now we're very fortunate to-- 11:37 But, you know, we don't have time to get into it, 11:39 but, you know, chickens in the backyard-- 11:41 Oh yeah-- 11:42 Remember that article you said. 11:46 The bleed literal, there is bleeding edge of freedom. 11:48 There's no stopping. And we went to court. 11:49 We went to court to--we file an amicus brief. 11:54 We filed an amicus brief defending the right 11:57 of these people to sacrifice animals. 11:58 Do we believe in sacrificing animals? 12:00 No, of course not, but they weren't hurting anybody 12:03 so why should they be stopped from doing 12:05 what they believe their religion demanded. 12:09 It's an interesting commentary on political dialogue 12:12 that when politicians running for office 12:15 make sometimes outrage statements 12:18 we just sort of put it down to a campaigning mode. 12:21 But when someone like Ahmadinejad in Iraq 12:25 makes threatening statements toward Israel or in Egypt 12:30 in the presidential elections there, 12:32 campaign candidate say that they would sabbatize 12:36 with the U.S. or bring in an Islamic republic, 12:38 we take that very seriously. 12:40 I believe we should also take seriously statements 12:44 like those made by candidates in Santorum 12:47 in the republican primaries where he demeaned 12:51 not only the separation of Church and State 12:53 but indeed the protestant nature 12:55 of American society saying that 12:57 it pretty much has given up its primary role. 13:01 These statements must be taken seriously. 13:04 They're not just made to appeal to narrow voter based 13:07 to get their support and hope that the rest of the country 13:10 or the electoral will ignore it. 13:13 They often reflect deeply held views 13:15 to the antithetical to freedom of religion. 13:18 The first amendment is important. 13:20 We must uphold it. 13:22 We must uphold religious freedom. 13:25 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17