Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break with
guest Clifford Goldstein
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we were talking
about some recent
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political
curiosities in the republican
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presidential
eliminations or primaries.
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But it's not just
in the United States,
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as I read my newspapers,
you know, there's elections,
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you know, the
places like in Egypt.
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There has been a
social upheaval there
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and, and at first people thought
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this was the twitter revolution
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and young people
just civil idealism,
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but its more and more
become obvious, isn't it?
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That there is a religious agenda
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and that the Muslim
brotherhood that Mubarak was,
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associate against is
not just the only problem.
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In fact to me,
hasn't it struck you as odd,
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that lot of the
commentators now are clinging
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to the Muslim
brotherhood as they are security
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for some sort of
normalcy that wild radical ones
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that are taking
over beyond that.
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Well, it shows.
Again, we talked about
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how things changed
when the Muslim Brotherhood
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is now seen as the moderates.
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I know because they--
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They're now seen
as the moderates.
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They've the
ideological roots of Al-Qaeda
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and the whole thing. Yeah.
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Well, I think
what you're saying,
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I was you, I maybe it was my age
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or whatever, but I
was very skeptical-- Yeah.
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The Arab spring
right from the beginning
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because look what happen
many, many, it was Algeria
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where 10, 15 years ago they
were gonna have free elections.
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So what happens three elections
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and it looks like the
Islamists are going to win.
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The military stages
are cool, crushes it
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and America with all
this talk about democracy,
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democracy,
democracy, we never said a word.
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And so see democracy, you
know, I often tell people,
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you know, it was Plato who
once railed against democracy.
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And--and think
about it for a minute.
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You have like GATT, okay
the GATT tree, the NAFTA.
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What does a shoemaker
or what does a truck driver
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or what does a doctor
know about GATT and NAFTA
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and you got all these
people gonna vote, you know,
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based on the stuff
where they don't know
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anything about it.
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And it took the
American experiment a law--
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our constitution was
originally written to limit--
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Absolutely, I
was gonna say that.
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--to limit democracy, to
limit the power of the mob.
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This was a
representative government
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of the United States.
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They were actually rather
fearful of pure democracy.
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And look what it took.
Look at the whole slavery.
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We bemoaned slavery. "Hey,
that was democratic America."
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Absolutely. Putting back,
the Jim Caldwell was slammed.
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They put it another
way-- It was all democratic.
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Majoritarian viewpoints,
it will lead you to the--
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to the rule of the mob.
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And this is what
many of the framers were--
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Well that's why
there is saying--
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But you've, you've
thrown, even I talk a lot
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but I've never heard you
mentioned Plato on democracy.
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What did he say?
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Well, he railed, well
Plato railed against democracy.
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He railed against anarchy.
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He railed against
a lot of different,
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and tyranny was the worse.
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Well, of course, in
his republic, you know--
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He was angry--
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Complex,
systematically he had a rule
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that was
disinterested but-- Yeah--
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A tight without a
special interest in gaining it.
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Yeah, he was an ideal.
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He was up in the
cloud somewhere, but Plato,
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he was angry with the democracy
'cause it was democracy
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that put to death his
beloved teacher, Socrates.
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It was but--but his
point, he had a point,
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where do you get the mob?
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Where do you get a group
of people voting on things
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that they're not experts?
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And that's why he wanted--
he had this whole envision,
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this whole idea of
the philosopher king.
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And by the way,
Plato was for women wooing.
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Plato was women.
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He said you take the brightest
and best and you educate them
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and you train them and
these become your rulers.
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These becomes your--
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I remember, it's
been year since I studied
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that his
philosopher king, he was trained
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to be king till he was 40.
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He would rule till he
was 80 and then be killed.
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Yeah, well, I say
perhaps he was radical.
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Nobody takes him seriously.
Nobody takes him seriously.
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And forbidden to own property.
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Yeah. Yeah, because
they don't want any--
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they want everything
taken care of, I mean,
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it was an ideal, "ideal."
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I mean it doesn't work
that way--way in reality,
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but the point is look
at the American experiment.
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Look at how long it took us,
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I mean we were
well into our democracy.
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We were into 1960s, and it took
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the most undemocratic
branch of the government,
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the U.S Supreme Court
which is decidedly out
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of the democratic process
to desegregate the school--
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Doing something which the
American democratic system--
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They were going against
the majority view at that time.
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Yeah. They would
not do on their own.
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So--so the point is,
it's taken us all this time
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and then you go to
these other countries.
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Now look at, they had free
elections in Gaza who came in,
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Hamas Yeah, yeah.
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Well, I think U.S foreign policy
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has taken--policy makers
have taken a note of that.
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Yeah, well that 's the point.
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They're gonna lit them up again.
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So, but I think
that's what you're saying
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in Egypt as well.
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I read a poll somewhere
in Linkedin and they said,
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Egypt, 80% of Egyptians
somewhere said a person
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should not be allowed
to change their religion.
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Now if this is
democracy, if they vote that in
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who are we to stick on--
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I think it was 80, yeah.
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80 or 85% of the--
the Islamic population
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which is about
80% of the population
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said that they would
support death penalty for--
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Yeah, yeah. But it's democracy.
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So why--why should we complain?
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Democracy that
was the whole idea--
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The Iraq war, this
whole idea we're gonna go.
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See there's a big
mistake that people make.
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This all
and--and it's very naive.
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Unfortunately, we had
a president that got us
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in a war over this idea,
is the idea that democracy
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you equate
democracy with freedom.
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It's--they've nothing in
common, not in themselves.
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You have a 100 people,
98% of them vote to oppress 2%
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or 51 % vote to oppress for 49%.
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That's not freedom.
Well, at that time what
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I thought we
should have emphasized
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with self-determination.
That's a little different.
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But if they self-determine,
we want to--we want to--
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But you don't want
the majoritarian rule.
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We wanna repressive
Islamic fundamental state--
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And I need to throw in an
ad for religious liberty that's
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the genius of--of the
separation of church's estate
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and the true
religious liberty concept
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that you will protect
the right of a minority.
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Even a minority that
you disliked intensely--
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That's been the
brilliance of the American.
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That's the
brilliance and the beauty
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and the rarity of
the whole American--
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But let me get back to Plato.
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You got my attention
because I think we're falling
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into a platonic
concept or a Greek concept of--
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of the will of the
voters because the Greek idea,
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as you well
know, was the goodness,
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virtue and knowledge is
inherent in the individual.
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And through learning or voting
process you bring that out.
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You could educate them.
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You could educate
and bring that out.
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And that's just goes
counter directly framers
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of the U.S. Constitution the--
the fathers of the republic,
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they were deeply suspicious
of the natural inclinations
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of an uninformed
Electra. Well, yeah.
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Well, Electra
has to be informed.
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It doesn't
inherently know anything.
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Well, I think it was Madison
once said, "If men were angels
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we wouldn't
need a constitution."
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They wanted very much.
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They believed that a
demo-- like in all a monarchy
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was ruled by the
people had to love the king.
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You know, and
tyranny was ruled by fear.
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They had to fear the king.
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And the whole point of democracy
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was you need an
educated people who understood
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the issues and they were
quite literate back then.
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And they read an
awful lot back then.
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And curiously enough even the--
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There was much more detailed--
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Even the Greek
democracy in essence
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had that idea
because it was not all people
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that could vote--
Oh, are you kidding me?
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It is only the
educated landowning--
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It was the male--male, I
think the male landowners
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or whatever you had-- the woman
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It's before women
learned how to think--
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The women had
nothing in ancient Greek.
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The women had nothing
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and you had a vast
contention of slaves.
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Though the slaves back
then were basically the people
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who lost wars, they
took them into captivity.
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Poor landless people.
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It was a small--it
was a small, I think,
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maybe they were may be 50,000
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in Athens at the height of,
you know, free, total free men.
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But they would all get together,
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a vast majority was like
almost the pure democracy.
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They'd all get
together in the square
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and they'd raise their hands.
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It's the Town Hall meeting type.
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There, and
they'd get vote on it,
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but of course it didn't
work out so great for them
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either the whole place though.
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But I--I really have a deep
burden that people understand
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this philosophy and a lot
of modern education is falling
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into that same
mistake, the idea that
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you're drawing out within.
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Yeah. What does the Bible say?
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Man is-- Oh, yeah.
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"That the thoughts
of the heart, surmises
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of the heart of
the evil continually."
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Yeah. Oh, yeah.
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So we need to be educated
in many directions morally
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and even just practically
speaking on how to govern.
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I mean, I remember reading
when in the Second World War
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some of these
Iron Sorts grouping,
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the groups that follow the--
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The killing squads. Yeah.
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I remember
reading some of the people
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were highly educated.
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Look some of the Nazis were.
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You know, Germany was the apex
of civilization at that time,
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very educated,
education ended up.
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Education is a neutral thing.
00:09:01.73\00:09:03.18
You could educate
somebody in a very bad way
00:09:03.19\00:09:05.57
or in a good way,
but all the education
00:09:05.58\00:09:07.47
the world doesn't
change the character.
00:09:07.48\00:09:09.08
It doesn't change-- The
natural inclination, yeah.
00:09:09.09\00:09:10.93
I think the founding fathers
even though they were despite
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all the
propaganda they weren't these
00:09:13.74\00:09:15.19
devout religious Christians.
00:09:15.20\00:09:16.39
They all came
out of a Christian--
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They share--they
share the morality that's--
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And I think it was
pretty much understood
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and I think here's
what Christianity is,
00:09:23.64\00:09:26.13
you know, someone said,
00:09:26.14\00:09:27.19
"You don't need the
one Christian doctor
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and you don't
need to take on faith
00:09:29.53\00:09:30.59
as sinful human--
sinful human nature."
00:09:30.60\00:09:34.07
And so I think
they understood that.
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And that's why you've
the separation of powers.
00:09:35.77\00:09:37.99
That's why you've
the three branches
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of government to
keep an eye on each other.
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They basically wanted
the system that was stripping
00:09:41.89\00:09:43.82
itself up so often
that it could do little more
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than carry on basic
business and--and implement
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the constitutional mandate.
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Sure. Sure.
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Well, as I get, it's still
amazing after all these years
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that we're still here and the
constitution is still intact.
00:09:54.75\00:09:57.83
It's an amazing
testimony to the fourth order
00:09:57.84\00:10:00.94
of the framers.
00:10:00.95\00:10:01.94
Yes.
00:10:01.95\00:10:02.94
And we hope it
continues from the point
00:10:02.95\00:10:04.76
of religious freedom
because that--that is--
00:10:04.77\00:10:06.77
Yeah, that's
the central freedom.
00:10:06.78\00:10:07.80
You lose that you lose that.
00:10:07.81\00:10:08.80
Absolutely.
00:10:08.81\00:10:09.80
As Hillary Clinton who
came and spoke one--one
00:10:09.81\00:10:11.62
of the
Adventists, she pointed to us,
00:10:11.63\00:10:13.08
she says, "religious freedom
00:10:13.09\00:10:14.43
is like the litmus
test of civil liberties."
00:10:14.44\00:10:16.66
Sure.
00:10:16.67\00:10:17.66
If--if religious
liberty is constricted,
00:10:17.67\00:10:19.28
everything else's a suspect.
00:10:19.29\00:10:20.90
Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:20.91\00:10:21.90
And so I've
turned that on its head,
00:10:21.91\00:10:24.33
and we will
guard religious liberty
00:10:24.34\00:10:26.78
and--and maybe the rest
of it would take of itself.
00:10:26.79\00:10:31.93
Where do we go from here? Yeah.
00:10:31.94\00:10:33.00
You looked like I need
to spark you on something.
00:10:33.01\00:10:34.85
Yeah, obviously let you go.
00:10:34.86\00:10:35.91
Well, no, that's,
it's crucial though
00:10:35.92\00:10:38.34
because you're
dealing with people's
00:10:38.35\00:10:40.22
most basic beliefs,
religion and--and it's
00:10:40.23\00:10:43.99
very easy not to take,
you know, somebody can have
00:10:44.00\00:10:46.12
a religious belief that I
think is absolute nonsense.
00:10:46.13\00:10:49.36
You know, ludicrous.
00:10:49.37\00:10:50.89
I wonder how can
any intelligent person,
00:10:50.90\00:10:52.86
anybody with a room
temperature IQ believe that,
00:10:52.87\00:10:55.61
but if you are
willing to protect that
00:10:55.62\00:10:59.46
something like that, you know,
00:10:59.47\00:11:00.70
it's easy to protect
your right, you know--
00:11:00.71\00:11:02.14
And it's worth
remembering, someone else thinks
00:11:02.17\00:11:04.30
the same of your viewpoint.
00:11:04.31\00:11:05.30
Yeah. That's the beauty of it.
00:11:05.31\00:11:06.50
I mean, if you're
willing to protect the absurd
00:11:06.51\00:11:08.99
even the most
absurd views of people,
00:11:09.00\00:11:12.02
the most
ludicrous beliefs, you know,
00:11:12.03\00:11:14.15
and so of course, you
know, as you know better
00:11:14.16\00:11:16.19
than I do 'cause I
forgotten all this.
00:11:16.20\00:11:17.45
There are limits as
to how far we go to,
00:11:17.46\00:11:19.64
you know, allow people
to practice their beliefs
00:11:19.65\00:11:21.86
and that gets a
whole other area--
00:11:21.87\00:11:23.31
Well, the limits have
to do with--with behavior
00:11:23.32\00:11:25.83
that's criminal or-or--
00:11:25.84\00:11:27.01
Sure.
00:11:27.02\00:11:28.01
Or socially disallowed,
that's apart from religion.
00:11:28.02\00:11:30.49
Religion can't cross you
into lines of criminality
00:11:30.50\00:11:33.19
and abuse of other people.
00:11:33.20\00:11:34.74
Yeah.
00:11:34.75\00:11:35.74
Now we're very fortunate to--
00:11:35.75\00:11:37.66
But, you know, we don't
have time to get into it,
00:11:37.67\00:11:39.64
but, you know,
chickens in the backyard--
00:11:39.65\00:11:41.77
Oh yeah--
00:11:41.78\00:11:42.89
Remember that article you said.
00:11:42.90\00:11:46.10
The bleed literal, there
is bleeding edge of freedom.
00:11:46.11\00:11:48.36
There's no stopping.
And we went to court.
00:11:48.37\00:11:49.82
We went to court
to--we file an amicus brief.
00:11:49.83\00:11:54.00
We filed an amicus
brief defending the right
00:11:54.01\00:11:56.97
of these people
to sacrifice animals.
00:11:56.98\00:11:58.87
Do we believe in
sacrificing animals?
00:11:58.88\00:12:00.54
No, of course not, but
they weren't hurting anybody
00:12:00.55\00:12:03.41
so why should they
be stopped from doing
00:12:03.42\00:12:05.13
what they believe
their religion demanded.
00:12:05.14\00:12:09.82
It's an interesting
commentary on political dialogue
00:12:09.83\00:12:12.93
that when
politicians running for office
00:12:12.94\00:12:15.36
make sometimes
outrage statements
00:12:15.37\00:12:18.25
we just sort of put it
down to a campaigning mode.
00:12:18.26\00:12:21.69
But when someone
like Ahmadinejad in Iraq
00:12:21.70\00:12:25.68
makes threatening statements
toward Israel or in Egypt
00:12:25.69\00:12:30.08
in the
presidential elections there,
00:12:30.09\00:12:32.35
campaign candidate say
that they would sabbatize
00:12:32.36\00:12:36.14
with the U.S. or bring
in an Islamic republic,
00:12:36.15\00:12:38.78
we take that very seriously.
00:12:38.79\00:12:40.75
I believe we should also
take seriously statements
00:12:40.76\00:12:44.41
like those made by
candidates in Santorum
00:12:44.42\00:12:47.67
in the republican
primaries where he demeaned
00:12:47.68\00:12:51.28
not only the
separation of Church and State
00:12:51.29\00:12:53.48
but indeed the protestant nature
00:12:53.49\00:12:55.37
of American society saying that
00:12:55.38\00:12:57.46
it pretty much has
given up its primary role.
00:12:57.47\00:13:01.02
These statements
must be taken seriously.
00:13:01.03\00:13:04.09
They're not just made to
appeal to narrow voter based
00:13:04.10\00:13:07.78
to get their support and hope
that the rest of the country
00:13:07.79\00:13:10.69
or the electoral will ignore it.
00:13:10.70\00:13:13.18
They often
reflect deeply held views
00:13:13.19\00:13:15.80
to the antithetical
to freedom of religion.
00:13:15.81\00:13:18.41
The first
amendment is important.
00:13:18.42\00:13:20.72
We must uphold it.
00:13:20.73\00:13:22.30
We must uphold
religious freedom.
00:13:22.31\00:13:24.17
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:25.99\00:13:29.28