Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Clifford Goldstein
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000177A
|
00:22 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is the program bringing you a discussion 00:26 and up to date information of religious liberty events 00:29 in the U.S. and around the world. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:35 And my guest on the program is Clifford Goldstein. 00:37 Welcome Cliff. You have the prior advantage 00:41 of being a Liberty editor, but currently you're editing 00:44 the Sabbath School Bible lesson quarterlies 00:47 for the Seventh-day Adventist World Church. 00:50 What do you want to talk about? 00:51 Because I know that once I warned you up, 00:52 I pretty much have to grab you by the throat to get it. 00:57 You mention the Santorum comment. 00:59 Before the program, I was saying 01:00 that may be what's happening 01:02 now in the republican primaries as some ramification 01:07 for religious liberty, particularly Senator Santorum. 01:10 You remember some of the things he said? 01:12 How did they affect you? 01:13 Yeah, well, I go-- for the audience 01:15 why don't you say, what did he specifically say, 01:17 when he was talked about John F. Kennedy's 01:20 famous speech on religious freedom and as-- 01:22 Where he wanted to America 01:23 that was not the catholic nor protestant-- 01:25 Yeah. But religion was separate. 01:28 And as a president, he wouldn't mix his religion 01:30 into his presidency which is the way he rule. Sure. 01:33 Or way he ran his presidency. 01:37 Santorum said, that, that made him want to puke. 01:40 Yeah, Well, Santorum stating me wanna puke. Yeah. 01:43 You know, it was a really grows any religious 01:46 take on someone that still held in high regard 01:48 by most of the citizens. 01:49 Well, I think to again as we said in the earlier program. 01:53 There is this perverted twisted concept 01:57 of separation of church and state that has 02:00 to the propaganda coo of many conservative Christians 02:05 in the political arena. 02:07 They want--you know, for many Christians, 02:09 for the many, many years the concept 02:11 of separation of church and state was hailed. 02:14 This is what is given us to freedom. 02:15 This is what is keeps the government 02:16 for be able to attach you. 02:18 This is what keeps the government 02:19 from be able to shut down your houses of warship. 02:22 This is what keeps the government from telling you 02:24 what to believe or what you can't you believes, 02:26 I mean, the whole idea was to save America. 02:30 Here and the American experiment 02:32 from what people went on almost all the human history till then 02:35 and it worked very, very well till some of these people 02:39 started wanting more, they wanted to use 02:42 the government to push their views and so on. 02:44 And then suddenly, church state separation 02:47 becomes an anathema, state church separation 02:49 becomes as horrible thing. 02:51 Even though there has been some perversion of it. 02:53 We all know that. 02:54 And I don't think to this point 02:56 the politically active religious right 02:58 which is an amalgam of protestant 03:00 and indeed catholic voters. 03:02 I don't think they're anyway 03:03 near majority of the voters of it. 03:05 But they're acting as majorities do in many countries. 03:08 The majority religious viewpoint, 03:11 they're always wanting to control 03:13 the religious life of the majority. 03:15 But the way things work in democracy, 03:17 so you don't have to have a majority. 03:19 Well, we're seeing that. It's the motivated minority. 03:21 Put a candidate over the top or, of course, 03:24 they don't--they put a candidate over the top 03:26 and they don't always get out of the candidates 03:28 what they-- what they want, 03:29 but don't know it's a-- it's a powerful block 03:31 and they've got a lot of influence 03:33 and they can make a difference. 03:35 And they all are making a difference. 03:36 At this moment it looks like Santorum 03:40 has bid for the nomination and it's not-- 03:42 not going anywhere, but I've wondered 03:44 from beginning who he was playing to. 03:47 As we've discussed many of the religious right 03:50 in the voting public would like him to say that, 03:54 but I tend to think that he was playing up 03:56 to his own church. Yeah. 03:58 Because if you remember, you are too earlier, 03:59 the catholic bishops had issued the statement 04:01 saying that they had made a great mistake 04:05 in allowing Kennedy to make those speeches 04:08 and to rule that way. 04:10 And that they were not going to make that mistake again. 04:12 Well, I think whatever, whoever was playing 04:14 was to obviously a mistake. 04:16 You know, gaff on his part and he probably-- 04:18 It's not politically delivered, was it? 04:20 Yeah, but I think it does represent though this, 04:23 but I think it shows that what the man is real, real thinking-- 04:26 It was a rude statement. 04:27 But you know, it's not gonna fly 04:28 and I think that's even with the republican establishment. 04:31 It's not gonna fly because most people-- 04:34 Americans, aren't there? 04:35 Most Americans look up to that speech 04:37 and they think that was a good speech. 04:39 And you've got to win the centre in American politics. 04:43 And his statements like that push him 04:45 so far out of the senate 04:46 which is why he's going nowhere now. 04:48 Let's talk about another statement 04:49 he made that I think was equally rude 04:52 but perhaps very perceptive. 04:56 He said speaking about American Protestantism 04:59 which really goes to the essential social characteristic 05:02 at the time of the formation of the republic. 05:04 It was a protestant society, not a catholic society. 05:07 And he says, something in effect that it's now gone, 05:13 it's weak, and lost its way. Well, you know-- 05:17 Ellen White speaking to Adventist it says, a state-- 05:19 Well, you know, I think this is one of the great 05:21 mysteries of American society. 05:24 I mean, we are the largest prevails of pornography. Yeah. 05:28 We keep the drug culture going. 05:30 I mean, you can run down the list, 05:32 the American consumerism, 05:33 you know, the move that the trash 05:35 that comes out of Hollywood yet-- 05:37 Well, in Iran, they called us the great Satan. 05:38 Good, every week and, you know, many of these people 05:40 they go to the movies on Saturday night 05:42 and get up and go to church on Sunday. 05:45 You know and so and so I think even though 05:48 there is we are a great number of Americans 05:50 claim to believe in God. 05:53 You know, claim to believe, 05:55 you know, many of them do go to church, 05:56 but in many ways it is not reflected in the way we live. 06:01 And lifestyle, no. And lifestyle. 06:02 So I think that's probably may be 06:04 what Santorum is referring to. 06:06 You can be a protestant by name you like and-- 06:09 But could be said of Catholics so-- 06:10 Yeah, well. So it means something. 06:11 Yeah, that's American. That's American religious. 06:14 Well, you go to Scandinavia days, 06:15 you know, 90% or 95% of the babies are born, 06:20 you know, they sprinkling them wherever they're, 06:23 they're officially Lutheran, they're officially 06:24 on the state church and they probably never go back again 06:27 until they're, till they're buried. 06:29 When he made that statement-- 06:30 and you're absolutely right sociologically 06:33 as a description that's going on. 06:34 When he made that statement of that Protestantism 06:37 I thought of something that no commentator 06:39 that I know of is connected with it. 06:42 He must have been looking at his own church. 06:44 Members of his own church like six out of the nine 06:47 justices on the Supreme Court Roman Catholic. 06:50 In the senate, in the congress the Roman Catholic 06:52 contingent a greater than any other single denomination 06:55 not more than all protestants, 06:56 but still there's a huge presence there 06:59 and invariably when someone's appointed to public, 07:02 major public national office, 07:04 you look in they're either roman catholic 07:06 or educated some judge out of catholic institution. 07:09 You know, that's all allowed the constitution 07:11 says no religious test for public office, 07:12 but there's a shift taken place. 07:15 You must be seeing his own church moving in. 07:19 Where Protestants are moving out. 07:21 Well, I think that sure and I think most people 07:22 don't really care and I think there is a big whole harm. 07:25 Nobody really cares about that anymore 07:26 and it shows you the radical change 07:28 because many people here are too young to remember, 07:30 I am too young to remember, 07:31 but I never reading about what a furor it was. 07:37 But that there were a Roman Catholic 07:38 was gonna be president. 07:40 Oh, yeah. It's not even an issue. 07:41 I'm just old enough to remember. 07:43 I remember when Geraldine Ferraro 07:45 and was Walter Mondale was running me, 07:47 the issue of her Catholicism never came up. 07:49 People were more concerned 07:50 about her husband's ties to the mafia. Yes. 07:53 Then they worried about the Roman Catholicism. 07:55 So it's an amazing. 07:56 Now, Kennedy changed things. 07:57 Yeah, yeah, it's an amazing shift. 07:59 I don't think anybody cares. 08:00 I don't think anybody cares new king 08:02 which is a converted catholic. 08:03 I don't think anybody cared about Santorum being a catholic. 08:06 It will be interesting to see how Americans deal 08:08 with Mitt Romney's Mormonism. 08:10 I'm not totally sure American's-- 08:11 Well, there's been a huge blowback against that 08:13 as far as him being president. 08:15 Whether they'd have the same concern 08:16 for some lesser office, probably not, 08:18 but for president it troubles-- 08:19 Yeah, I am-- I'll be very curious 08:21 I think a lot of Americans are gonna have an issue 08:23 with that and I had heard that when Romney 08:27 was running for office last time 08:30 that some of the Mormon elders were not happy 08:33 about that because they were afraid 08:34 it was gonna bring Mormonism under an intense scrutiny 08:37 that they don't want, quite frankly 08:39 I can't blame them, but that's another issue. 08:41 So I do think it is going to become an issue. 08:44 But let me now throw something by you. 08:46 It's ready for somebody who's not a Christian 08:48 to be the president, okay. 08:50 It is ready? No, I said is America-- 08:51 No, I don't think so. 08:53 Well, that's what you're gonna get with Mormonism. 08:54 Because Obama who is clearly in a wide 08:57 and repeatedly he says so that he is a Christian. 09:01 He has been accused to being a-- 09:02 Yeah, yeah-- As though that's a-- 09:04 Every can't being a Marxist spy, you know-- 09:06 And what I was gonna throw of about Romney. 09:11 This cycle and the previous cycle there were a huge 09:13 objections from-- from many of the Christians, 09:15 the protestants Christians community about his Mormonism. 09:18 Yeah. But I can remember or in HAT training 09:21 for the republican nomination. Yeah. 09:24 Well, it wasn't a big, well. 09:25 I just don't remember the smallest column 09:28 criticizing his Mormonism. 09:29 Well, but I think if he gets the nomination, 09:31 it's gonna come up because a lot of people myself 09:34 included doesn't don't believe Mormonism 09:37 as a Christian religion. Now that's fine. 09:39 Now that's not a religious liberty point. 09:41 Religious Liberty believes anything and everything-- 09:43 Yeah, yeah, he has a total right to wrong. 09:45 From a point of orthodoxy. 09:47 As a Christian, you can say these people-- 09:50 He's got the right to run. 09:51 I would defend his right to run. 09:52 He's got the right to run. 09:53 but a lot of people were gonna bring up 09:56 the question if you look at 09:57 what Mormons believe and then you ask yourself, 10:00 am I comfortable having the most powerful man 10:03 in the world holding those beliefs? 10:05 If you are, that's fine, that's fine. 10:07 But I do think it will become an issue. 10:10 If he gets the nomination 10:11 which at this point looks like it's a done deal. Yes. 10:13 It looks like a done deal. 10:15 So I do think that it is going 10:18 to become much more of an issue 10:20 and if the campaign this is gonna be as nasty, 10:26 as what we--they have been in the past. I think so. 10:28 And what we could see from that-- 10:30 We're into the era of nasty living. 10:32 Yeah, well of course, look you go back, 10:33 can you know this is well as I do. 10:34 You go back and you read 10:35 like the campaigning Chef or sin versus Adam-- 10:37 Well, that's true-- 10:38 They were delicious. They were--you could probably-- 10:41 He was the atheist. 10:43 For slander today for the stuff they said, 10:45 but I have a feeling that is going to be an issue 10:48 and it could bring out some very ugly strange. 10:52 But what I think it's tending to do now is chase people 10:55 toward a Christian America viewpoint. Yeah. 10:58 Even if they're more open, 10:59 they're particular horror at this viewpoint. 11:04 And of course, as the separation of church and state 11:06 is diminished then the expectation 11:08 is that this person will indulge 11:09 their religious viewpoint in the office. 11:12 Well, you know, I get when time 11:14 will I am not convinced Romney's gonna win 11:16 the presidency though, I do think-- 11:18 Well-- I do think-- 11:19 You can have personal views. 11:21 Due to the issue of his religion will I believe come up? 11:25 I think the--with the age of the super packs 11:28 and you got people that Obama could say, 11:29 I've got nothing to do with these people. 11:31 You can be sure that there's gonna be 11:33 a lot of stuff coming up about that. 11:35 We can be sure because this-- this presidential campaign 11:38 season is kicked off with serious discussion of religion. 11:41 It's not gonna go away. Yeah. 11:42 I think law it's been happening for the last several cycles 11:45 and it's just getting more and more. 11:47 So religion is important in this world. 11:49 And I've connected to the war on terror. Yeah. 11:52 Because the war on terror, 11:53 well, these are, you know, fanatics 11:56 that are on a secular agenda. 11:58 They come from a religious base. 12:00 There are fanatical form of a religion 12:02 that we found threatening and so in response 12:04 we want to show up the religious defense in our society. 12:08 So it's tending to bring out religious 12:10 fundamentalism even in Christian America. 12:13 Well, I think any kind of threat would tend to do that, 12:15 you know, any kind of threat. 12:16 Yes, well any threat would but particularly-- 12:18 particularly a religious-- 12:20 Yeah, yeah, it doesn't bode well for the future, 12:22 I think. It doesn't bode well for tolerance 12:24 in this country or respect 12:25 for other views or religious freedom. 12:27 Yeah. We'll back after a short break 12:30 to continue this discussion of what's going on 12:33 in the religious world and the political world 12:36 in the United States as we move toward 12:37 the presidential election. We'll be back. |
Revised 2014-12-17