Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is the program
bringing you a discussion
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and up to date information
of religious liberty events
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in the U.S. and
around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Clifford Goldstein.
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Welcome Cliff. You
have the prior advantage
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of being a Liberty editor,
but currently you're editing
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the Sabbath School
Bible lesson quarterlies
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for the Seventh-day
Adventist World Church.
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What do you want to talk about?
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Because I know that
once I warned you up,
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I pretty much have to grab
you by the throat to get it.
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You mention the
Santorum comment.
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Before the program, I was saying
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that may be what's happening
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now in the republican
primaries as some ramification
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for religious liberty,
particularly Senator Santorum.
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You remember some
of the things he said?
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How did they affect you?
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Yeah, well, I
go-- for the audience
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why don't you say, what
did he specifically say,
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when he was talked
about John F. Kennedy's
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famous speech on
religious freedom and as--
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Where he wanted to America
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that was not the
catholic nor protestant--
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Yeah. But religion was separate.
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And as a president, he
wouldn't mix his religion
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into his presidency
which is the way he rule. Sure.
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Or way he ran his presidency.
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Santorum said, that,
that made him want to puke.
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Yeah, Well, Santorum
stating me wanna puke. Yeah.
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You know, it was a
really grows any religious
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take on someone that
still held in high regard
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by most of the citizens.
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Well, I think to again as
we said in the earlier program.
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There is this
perverted twisted concept
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of separation of
church and state that has
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to the propaganda coo of
many conservative Christians
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in the political arena.
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They want--you
know, for many Christians,
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for the many,
many years the concept
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of separation of
church and state was hailed.
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This is what is
given us to freedom.
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This is what is
keeps the government
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for be able to attach you.
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This is what
keeps the government
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from be able to shut
down your houses of warship.
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This is what keeps the
government from telling you
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what to believe or
what you can't you believes,
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I mean, the whole
idea was to save America.
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Here and the American experiment
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from what people went on almost
all the human history till then
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and it worked very, very
well till some of these people
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started wanting
more, they wanted to use
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the government to
push their views and so on.
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And then suddenly,
church state separation
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becomes an anathema,
state church separation
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becomes as horrible thing.
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Even though there has
been some perversion of it.
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We all know that.
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And I don't think to this point
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the politically
active religious right
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which is an
amalgam of protestant
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and indeed catholic voters.
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I don't think they're anyway
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near majority of
the voters of it.
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But they're acting as
majorities do in many countries.
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The majority
religious viewpoint,
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they're always
wanting to control
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the religious
life of the majority.
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But the way
things work in democracy,
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so you don't have
to have a majority.
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Well, we're seeing that.
It's the motivated minority.
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Put a candidate over
the top or, of course,
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they don't--they put
a candidate over the top
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and they don't always
get out of the candidates
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what they-- what they want,
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but don't know it's
a-- it's a powerful block
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and they've got
a lot of influence
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and they can make a difference.
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And they all are
making a difference.
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At this moment it
looks like Santorum
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has bid for the
nomination and it's not--
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not going
anywhere, but I've wondered
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from beginning
who he was playing to.
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As we've discussed
many of the religious right
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in the voting public
would like him to say that,
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but I tend to think
that he was playing up
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to his own church. Yeah.
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Because if you
remember, you are too earlier,
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the catholic bishops
had issued the statement
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saying that they
had made a great mistake
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in allowing Kennedy
to make those speeches
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and to rule that way.
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And that they were not going
to make that mistake again.
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Well, I think
whatever, whoever was playing
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was to obviously a mistake.
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You know, gaff on his
part and he probably--
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It's not
politically delivered, was it?
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Yeah, but I think it
does represent though this,
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but I think it shows that what
the man is real, real thinking--
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It was a rude statement.
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But you know, it's not gonna fly
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and I think that's even with
the republican establishment.
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It's not gonna fly
because most people--
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Americans, aren't there?
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Most Americans
look up to that speech
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and they think
that was a good speech.
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And you've got to win the
centre in American politics.
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And his
statements like that push him
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so far out of the senate
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which is why he's
going nowhere now.
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Let's talk about
another statement
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he made that I
think was equally rude
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but perhaps very perceptive.
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He said speaking
about American Protestantism
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which really goes to the
essential social characteristic
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at the time of the
formation of the republic.
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It was a protestant
society, not a catholic society.
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And he says, something in
effect that it's now gone,
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it's weak, and lost
its way. Well, you know--
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Ellen White speaking to
Adventist it says, a state--
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Well, you know, I think
this is one of the great
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mysteries of American society.
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I mean, we are the largest
prevails of pornography. Yeah.
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We keep the drug culture going.
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I mean, you can
run down the list,
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the American consumerism,
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you know, the
move that the trash
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that comes out
of Hollywood yet--
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Well, in Iran, they
called us the great Satan.
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Good, every week and, you
know, many of these people
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they go to the
movies on Saturday night
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and get up and go
to church on Sunday.
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You know and so and
so I think even though
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there is we are a
great number of Americans
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claim to believe in God.
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You know, claim to believe,
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you know, many of
them do go to church,
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but in many ways it is not
reflected in the way we live.
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And lifestyle,
no. And lifestyle.
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So I think
that's probably may be
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what Santorum is referring to.
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You can be a protestant
by name you like and--
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But could be
said of Catholics so--
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Yeah, well. So
it means something.
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Yeah, that's American.
That's American religious.
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Well, you go to
Scandinavia days,
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you know, 90% or 95%
of the babies are born,
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you know, they sprinkling
them wherever they're,
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they're officially
Lutheran, they're officially
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on the state church and they
probably never go back again
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until they're,
till they're buried.
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When he made that statement--
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and you're
absolutely right sociologically
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as a
description that's going on.
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When he made that
statement of that Protestantism
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I thought of
something that no commentator
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that I know of is
connected with it.
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He must have been
looking at his own church.
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Members of his own
church like six out of the nine
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justices on the
Supreme Court Roman Catholic.
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In the senate, in the
congress the Roman Catholic
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contingent a greater than
any other single denomination
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not more than all protestants,
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but still there's
a huge presence there
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and invariably when
someone's appointed to public,
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major public national office,
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you look in they're
either roman catholic
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or educated some judge
out of catholic institution.
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You know, that's all
allowed the constitution
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says no religious
test for public office,
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but there's a shift taken place.
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You must be seeing
his own church moving in.
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Where
Protestants are moving out.
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Well, I think that
sure and I think most people
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don't really care and I
think there is a big whole harm.
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Nobody really
cares about that anymore
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and it shows you
the radical change
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because many people here
are too young to remember,
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I am too young to remember,
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but I never reading
about what a furor it was.
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But that there
were a Roman Catholic
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was gonna be president.
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Oh, yeah. It's
not even an issue.
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I'm just old enough to remember.
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I remember when
Geraldine Ferraro
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and was Walter
Mondale was running me,
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the issue of her
Catholicism never came up.
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People were more concerned
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about her husband's
ties to the mafia. Yes.
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Then they worried
about the Roman Catholicism.
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So it's an amazing.
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Now, Kennedy changed things.
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Yeah, yeah, it's
an amazing shift.
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I don't think anybody cares.
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I don't think
anybody cares new king
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which is a converted catholic.
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I don't think anybody cared
about Santorum being a catholic.
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It will be interesting
to see how Americans deal
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with Mitt Romney's Mormonism.
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I'm not totally
sure American's--
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Well, there's been a
huge blowback against that
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as far as him being president.
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Whether they'd
have the same concern
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for some lesser
office, probably not,
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but for president it troubles--
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Yeah, I am--
I'll be very curious
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I think a lot of Americans
are gonna have an issue
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with that and I had
heard that when Romney
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was running for office last time
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that some of the
Mormon elders were not happy
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about that
because they were afraid
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it was gonna bring Mormonism
under an intense scrutiny
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that they don't
want, quite frankly
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I can't blame them,
but that's another issue.
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So I do think it is
going to become an issue.
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But let me now
throw something by you.
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It's ready for
somebody who's not a Christian
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to be the president, okay.
00:08:48.55\00:08:50.16
It is ready? No,
I said is America--
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No, I don't think so.
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Well, that's what you're
gonna get with Mormonism.
00:08:52.98\00:08:54.50
Because Obama who
is clearly in a wide
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and repeatedly he says
so that he is a Christian.
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He has been accused to being a--
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Yeah, yeah-- As
though that's a--
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Every can't being a
Marxist spy, you know--
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And what I was gonna
throw of about Romney.
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This cycle and the
previous cycle there were a huge
00:09:11.39\00:09:13.80
objections from-- from
many of the Christians,
00:09:13.81\00:09:15.68
the protestants Christians
community about his Mormonism.
00:09:15.69\00:09:18.04
Yeah. But I can
remember or in HAT training
00:09:18.05\00:09:21.34
for the
republican nomination. Yeah.
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Well, it wasn't a big, well.
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I just don't
remember the smallest column
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criticizing his Mormonism.
00:09:28.43\00:09:29.80
Well, but I think if
he gets the nomination,
00:09:29.81\00:09:31.61
it's gonna come up
because a lot of people myself
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included doesn't
don't believe Mormonism
00:09:34.32\00:09:37.09
as a Christian
religion. Now that's fine.
00:09:37.10\00:09:39.39
Now that's not a
religious liberty point.
00:09:39.40\00:09:40.99
Religious Liberty believes
anything and everything--
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Yeah, yeah, he has a
total right to wrong.
00:09:43.96\00:09:45.37
From a point of orthodoxy.
00:09:45.38\00:09:47.52
As a Christian, you
can say these people--
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He's got the right to run.
00:09:50.28\00:09:51.30
I would defend his right to run.
00:09:51.31\00:09:52.61
He's got the right to run.
00:09:52.62\00:09:53.68
but a lot of
people were gonna bring up
00:09:53.69\00:09:56.32
the question if you look at
00:09:56.33\00:09:57.48
what Mormons believe
and then you ask yourself,
00:09:57.49\00:10:00.59
am I comfortable
having the most powerful man
00:10:00.60\00:10:03.04
in the world
holding those beliefs?
00:10:03.05\00:10:05.36
If you are,
that's fine, that's fine.
00:10:05.37\00:10:07.00
But I do think it
will become an issue.
00:10:07.01\00:10:10.41
If he gets the nomination
00:10:10.42\00:10:11.61
which at this point looks
like it's a done deal. Yes.
00:10:11.62\00:10:13.92
It looks like a done deal.
00:10:13.93\00:10:14.97
So I do think that it is going
00:10:14.98\00:10:18.81
to become much more of an issue
00:10:18.82\00:10:20.91
and if the campaign
this is gonna be as nasty,
00:10:20.92\00:10:26.14
as what we--they have
been in the past. I think so.
00:10:26.15\00:10:28.84
And what we
could see from that--
00:10:28.85\00:10:30.27
We're into the
era of nasty living.
00:10:30.28\00:10:32.10
Yeah, well of
course, look you go back,
00:10:32.11\00:10:33.25
can you know
this is well as I do.
00:10:33.26\00:10:34.53
You go back and you read
00:10:34.54\00:10:35.65
like the campaigning
Chef or sin versus Adam--
00:10:35.66\00:10:37.70
Well, that's true--
00:10:37.71\00:10:38.70
They were delicious. They
were--you could probably--
00:10:38.71\00:10:41.09
He was the atheist.
00:10:41.10\00:10:43.01
For slander today
for the stuff they said,
00:10:43.02\00:10:45.15
but I have a feeling
that is going to be an issue
00:10:45.16\00:10:48.38
and it could bring out
some very ugly strange.
00:10:48.39\00:10:52.41
But what I think it's tending
to do now is chase people
00:10:52.42\00:10:55.42
toward a Christian
America viewpoint. Yeah.
00:10:55.43\00:10:58.35
Even if they're more open,
00:10:58.36\00:10:59.41
they're particular
horror at this viewpoint.
00:10:59.42\00:11:03.97
And of course, as the
separation of church and state
00:11:03.98\00:11:05.99
is diminished
then the expectation
00:11:06.00\00:11:08.35
is that this person will indulge
00:11:08.36\00:11:09.82
their religious
viewpoint in the office.
00:11:09.83\00:11:12.32
Well, you know, I get when time
00:11:12.33\00:11:13.99
will I am not
convinced Romney's gonna win
00:11:14.00\00:11:16.66
the presidency
though, I do think--
00:11:16.67\00:11:18.65
Well-- I do think--
00:11:18.66\00:11:19.71
You can have personal views.
00:11:19.72\00:11:21.15
Due to the issue of his
religion will I believe come up?
00:11:21.16\00:11:25.14
I think the--with the
age of the super packs
00:11:25.15\00:11:28.11
and you got people
that Obama could say,
00:11:28.12\00:11:29.63
I've got nothing to
do with these people.
00:11:29.64\00:11:31.68
You can be sure
that there's gonna be
00:11:31.69\00:11:33.71
a lot of stuff
coming up about that.
00:11:33.72\00:11:35.31
We can be sure because this--
this presidential campaign
00:11:35.32\00:11:38.48
season is kicked off with
serious discussion of religion.
00:11:38.49\00:11:41.28
It's not gonna go away. Yeah.
00:11:41.29\00:11:42.42
I think law it's been happening
for the last several cycles
00:11:42.43\00:11:45.72
and it's just
getting more and more.
00:11:45.73\00:11:47.04
So religion is
important in this world.
00:11:47.05\00:11:49.81
And I've connected to
the war on terror. Yeah.
00:11:49.82\00:11:52.16
Because the war on terror,
00:11:52.17\00:11:53.42
well, these are,
you know, fanatics
00:11:53.43\00:11:56.62
that are on a secular agenda.
00:11:56.63\00:11:58.82
They come from a religious base.
00:11:58.83\00:12:00.37
There are
fanatical form of a religion
00:12:00.38\00:12:02.15
that we found
threatening and so in response
00:12:02.16\00:12:04.50
we want to show up the religious
defense in our society.
00:12:04.51\00:12:08.24
So it's tending to
bring out religious
00:12:08.25\00:12:10.70
fundamentalism even
in Christian America.
00:12:10.71\00:12:13.15
Well, I think any kind of
threat would tend to do that,
00:12:13.16\00:12:15.62
you know, any kind of threat.
00:12:15.63\00:12:16.92
Yes, well any threat
would but particularly--
00:12:16.93\00:12:18.86
particularly a religious--
00:12:18.87\00:12:20.61
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't
bode well for the future,
00:12:20.62\00:12:22.10
I think. It doesn't
bode well for tolerance
00:12:22.11\00:12:23.98
in this country or respect
00:12:23.99\00:12:25.73
for other views
or religious freedom.
00:12:25.74\00:12:27.84
Yeah. We'll back
after a short break
00:12:27.85\00:12:30.86
to continue this
discussion of what's going on
00:12:30.87\00:12:33.54
in the religious world
and the political world
00:12:33.55\00:12:36.05
in the United
States as we move toward
00:12:36.06\00:12:37.89
the presidential
election. We'll be back.
00:12:37.90\00:12:41.60