Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Clifford Goldstein
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000176B
|
00:06 Welcome back to "The Liberty Insider."
00:07 Before the break with guest Clifford Goldstein, 00:10 a former editor of Liberty magazine, 00:13 we were getting wound up on history of the constitution 00:16 and of the U.S. experiment with those 13 colonies 00:19 that had their established churches, 00:21 but on a Federal level, clearly, 00:23 religion was pretty much not so much off the table 00:26 but it was a clear separation 00:28 between the civil and the religious-- 00:29 I know, and that's why I said that's one of the big farces 00:32 that you hear about this golden age, 00:35 you know, everybody was religious-- 00:36 It was a [ ] experiment from the beginning. 00:38 It worked out well. Oh, yeah. It's amazing 00:41 that it's worked out as well as it has 00:43 but it's not this golden age 00:45 when everybody was religious 00:47 and everybody was going to church. 00:48 And there was a good amount of religious persecution. 00:51 The mormon Mitt Romney's making a good run 00:53 for the Republican nomination. Yeah. 00:56 But mormons have been very severely persecuted. 00:58 Death penalty at one point. 01:00 Sure, yeah. 01:02 Extermination order for what was the Governor of-- 01:05 should remember the state. Yeah, I don't know. 01:06 But they had a very hard time in this country. 01:08 And then the Catholics-- Sure. 01:09 There was rioting 01:11 where Catholics were lynched on sight. 01:12 The Ku Klux Klan, that was 01:14 a major leg of their hate agenda. 01:18 I know, so this whole idea of this golden age of-- 01:20 you know, religion and everybody was-- 01:22 We're probably in the golden age now. 01:25 Well, for certain people-- 01:26 But prophetic that we know that it's sort of an-- 01:28 For certain people it's, you know, 01:29 the freedoms we have now are amazing all those-- 01:33 and we ought to-- 01:34 it's very easy though we take them for granted. 01:35 We do take it for granted. 01:37 We just assume everybody can say what they want. 01:39 And I can still remember years ago seeing-- 01:44 I don't even think I'd become Liberty editor, yet. 01:46 But I remember I was downtown D.C. 01:48 and this is during the time of the Rambo movies 01:50 and they had a shirtless Sylvester Stallone, 01:54 all muscles and on top they had-- 01:56 they photographed in Ronald Reagan 01:59 and the picture was Ronbo. 02:01 And I remember-- and it said Ronbo. 02:02 I remember a friend of mine who ended up becoming a lawyer. 02:05 We looked at that and, you know, at that moment 02:07 we realized three quarters of the countries of the world, 02:11 you would've done that to the leader, 02:13 you would've been, you know, you would've been in jail. 02:15 And we realized look at this is what freedom is about. 02:18 And it was amazing. 02:20 I think the amazing thing too that always gets me 02:22 when I read history was 02:24 you think where the founders came from. 02:27 Most of them, you know, they were born in America 02:29 but they came out of the tradition of Europe 02:32 of all this persecution, of all that what we're, 02:35 you know, I remember John Locke. 02:36 Well, that was their salutary lesson. 02:38 They wanted to avoid that. 02:39 But also, they were clearly a product 02:41 of the philosophical reasoning that came through 02:44 the British, British experiment. 02:45 Yeah, well, they claimed that they were Englishmen. 02:47 They claimed their fight against King George 02:48 was the rights of Englishmen. Yeah. 02:50 And it was funny 'cause England at that time, 02:53 I mean, we would look back at it, horrified at 02:55 some of the laws they had. But at that time 02:57 many of the people on the continent looked to England. 03:00 You know, they actually had a real Parliament. 03:02 You didn't have absolute monarchs, 03:03 you had a certain amount. 03:05 I mean, I think the influence of John Locke-- 03:07 Absolutely. you know, on that had-- 03:08 Well, on the back page of Liberty recently 03:09 we had a quote from John Locke 03:11 and I tried to get the artist and the designer 03:13 to have a painting with John Locke like Teletubbies 03:17 where he was the sun 03:18 and his face was shining out of the sun onto Washington 03:21 because John Locke was central. 03:22 Well, they said in many ways they-- 03:23 I remember reading, one historian said, 03:26 "Jefferson copied Locke." 03:29 Yeah. But in many ways they got a lot of good stuff. 03:31 But even back then, Locke, 03:32 we say, as progressive as he was, 03:36 Locke wanted religious freedom for everybody 03:38 except for Catholics and I think atheists-- 03:41 Well, we had a narrow, a narrow view-- 03:43 Because Catholics, Catholics, 03:44 who you're afriad their allegiance 03:46 was gonna be to the Pope. A good fear. 03:47 And atheists they figured, they didn't 03:50 have enough to worry about lying or anything like that 03:54 because doing anything wrong 'cause they didn't 03:57 worry about the retribute of God. 03:58 Remember all the British systems, too. 04:00 We've heard, you get the Bible there 04:01 and you swear on the Bible 04:03 so an atheist's oath and word was not to be relied on. 04:04 Yeah. So, again, from our perspective today, 04:07 see, in many ways, it is an evolving thing. 04:11 You know, it evolves, it changes 04:13 and ideally, you'd like to think it's changing for the better. 04:16 And this is what I've said on this program and in Liberty, 04:19 it's evolving and in many ways 04:21 this is the best and the worst of times. 04:25 Because we've evolved 04:27 in some ways to improve our understanding. 04:28 And the concept of religious freedom 04:31 and even separationism has become 04:34 enshrined in people's thinking. 04:35 But the threats have never been worse. Oh, yeah. 04:38 The hazards have never been higher. 04:41 And I think we're almost coming to the point 04:44 where it's getting better, and getting worse, 04:45 and something's gonna give. 04:47 Well, you know, all I know is I mean, 04:49 it would take something radical, something major. 04:54 It's very scary when you think of-- 04:56 Dominionism is a radical view. 04:57 Well, the thing is, you know, 04:59 I live in the Washington D.C. area 05:00 and there are all sorts of people 05:02 in the intelligence community there. 05:03 And they are the most paranoid group of people, 05:05 you ever want to meet. 05:06 All the Liberty editors. I know they are. 05:08 Yeah, I know they're about on par with you. 05:10 But they are very paranoid and it is their [ ] 05:13 I remember I had one friend who said, 05:15 "I wish I didn't know the things I know." 05:17 He wouldn't tell me what they were, 05:18 but you could see the fear on his face 05:20 and it could take something boom. 05:22 I remember a while back reading in 05:25 say let's in a magazine called "Cigar Aficionado," okay? 05:28 Aficionado? Yeah, Aficionado, yeah. 05:30 And it was General Tommy Franks and he warned-- 05:34 I remember that article. Yeah, and you know, 05:35 he warned about-- oh, you read "Cigar Aficionado" too? 05:38 On the news [5:41]. Yeah. 05:41 My father was a temperance leader. 05:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We know it. Secret's out. 05:46 But he warned about how all that would take 05:49 some kind of major catastrophe 05:51 and all these freedoms. You know, I remember after-- 05:54 And that's really where I've come from. 05:56 I believe where 05:57 one 9/11 type of [5:58] 05:59 We've argued over this before. 06:00 But I remember--you and I sat in your office 06:02 and argued over this. 06:03 After 9/11, I really didn't care if back then John Ashcroft 06:08 wanted a peek in my bedroom window or read my email, 06:11 you know, or listen in my phone conversations. 06:14 If that was gonna keep Osama Bin Laden 06:16 from nuking me and my family, 06:17 let him do it, you know? So-- 06:18 You're a typical American []. 06:20 Well, well, there is a balance, there is a balance. 06:22 In retrospect though, that's a very dangerous 06:25 giving away of brothers. Of course, of course. 06:27 Coming here, on the way here, I read something. 06:29 I saw something in the airport in wired 06:31 and I'm not sure because N.S.A. 06:34 the National Security Agent's charter is for overseas. 06:38 They're not allowed to spy on Americans. 06:40 They supposedly will put them in jail. 06:41 In fact, after that scandal came out a while back, 06:44 I knew one of the guys at the F.B.I. 06:45 interrogated for 14 hours, he said 'cause they thought 06:48 he was the one that did the leak. 06:50 But according to wire, 06:52 they said N.S.A. is getting the technology 06:55 where they will be able to know every phone call, 06:58 every text message, every internet search, everything. 07:01 Now first of all I'm not sure N.S.A. does that but, I mean, 07:05 you think a little bit about the big brother society. 07:07 Oh, we're into big brother, now. But it can be abused. 07:10 It can be abused but at the same time they're probably, 07:12 doing it in an attempt for security 07:16 but if the wrong people got a hold of it, 07:18 and the power got in, then they-- 07:20 That if you're willing to giving away freedoms for threat. 07:21 What's that? 07:26 That is the-what's that quote? Oh, the quote from Franklin? 07:30 Yeah. Those that are willing to give away 07:31 freedom for security deserve neither or something like that. 07:34 I'm afraid we're gathered with that mindset. 07:37 Yeah, well, there's a balance there, 07:38 there's a balance in every society. And religious freedom, 07:41 if it's nothing else, it's a personal matter. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 07:43 So to have a government or indeed, other individuals 07:47 trying to get into your soul to decide 07:49 what you should believe in and how you should act, 07:51 that's not good for religious freedom. Yeah, of course, not. 07:54 But no one's necessarily saying 07:55 that's where they're going right now. That could happen. 07:56 I don't believe they intend that, 07:58 but that's a byproduct of this intrusion 08:00 that technology is granting to us. 08:02 As much as we love our gizmos and we love our technology. 08:05 I mean, I can't live without this thing. 08:07 But what's rather disturbing, 08:08 was it when you found that they could track you? 08:10 Your extra girlfriend [8:11], right. 08:12 Yeah, with the-- no, I don't have [8:13] yet. 08:13 I'm waiting for the upgrade. But the other thing too 08:16 is there's software you could get, 08:18 that I hear that you get it on here. Your phone is off. 08:21 Somebody could hear your conversation, so in one sense, 08:25 it is as much we--everything-- 08:27 Now things have changed since you started with Liberty. 08:29 This was just barely thought about--20 years ago. 08:33 We've just rapidly moved into an era 08:36 where everything is the public's concern 08:38 or the government's concern. 08:39 Yeah, well, there's very little privacy now. 08:41 If you really want privacy, 08:43 I don't know how you're gonna get it. 08:44 I mean, it's, you know, they can trap where you're going. 08:47 I even think about Google. 08:49 Google, I'm sure 30 years ago, 08:52 what you could do with Google maps? 08:54 With Google maps was probably, 08:56 top secret technology in the Pentagon. 08:59 Well, it was, we know that. Top secret. 09:01 They still have a higher resolution. 09:02 Every schnook with a cell phone's got, 09:05 you know, got Google maps and you could see. 09:07 Can you imagine what they could do now? 09:09 Well, I know one thing they're doing now. 09:10 They can go down and look at your house 09:12 to see if you had a-- if you build a deck there 09:14 and then did you have a building permit there. 09:15 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, bro, 09:17 that's just the day and age we live in 09:18 and I don't think it's gonna-- 09:20 Sort of Corrie ten Boom story "No Hiding Place." 09:22 Yeah, yeah. I don't think that there is 09:25 any turning back at this point so. 09:26 No, but there's still a need for Liberty magazine, 09:29 isn't there? Oh, yeah. 09:31 And I think we need to defend it 09:32 and see what you say of this. 09:34 We need to defend it not so much from a constitutional level 09:37 which was a nice civil advantage, 09:39 but from a biblical moral level. Sure. 09:42 Sure, I mean, there's only God created humans free. 09:46 You know, God created us free 09:50 and the greatest example of the freedom we have is the cross, 09:53 because Jesus died on the cross 09:55 because He gave humanity freedom. 09:59 And it was freedom that's so sacred, 10:01 so fundamental that rather than take it away, 10:05 God took a chance. 10:07 He took a chance creating these freebies, 10:08 even knowing what we're gonna do 10:10 but our freedom is so sacred. 10:12 He said, "Hey, I'm gonna go to the cross 10:13 rather than deny people freedom." 10:15 And if that's God's attitude towards it, 10:17 how could we as beings made in His image 10:20 have any other attitude about it? 10:24 The Apostle Paul spoke of the Gospel of Liberty as he put it. 10:30 So as editor of Liberty magazine, I certainly 10:33 can concur that religious liberty is vital and integrally 10:38 connected to the gospel message that we are called to give. 10:43 In talking with Clifford Goldstein, 10:45 of his tenure as editor of Liberty magazine 10:48 and remembering back to his predecessor Roland Hegstad, 10:52 I know that there are some great topics that have been covered 10:56 and some great battles that have been fought 10:58 from the editor's position and through the magazine. 11:01 We are dealing with life and death issues 11:04 and religious liberty is never going to be immaterial. 11:08 Sometimes, it might put us 11:10 against special interest groups. 11:14 As I've sometimes even humorously noted 11:18 even on the Liberty board meeting, we'll need to hold fast 11:21 and project a very serious position 11:24 that the magazine is pursuing. 11:26 But above all, when we talk about religious freedom 11:29 as Paul reminded us, "Religious freedom is the gospel." 11:33 Religious freedom is speaking about 11:36 and promoting Jesus Christ and His love. 11:40 For "Liberty Insider" this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17