Welcome back to
"The Liberty Insider."
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Before the break with
guest Clifford Goldstein,
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a former editor
of Liberty magazine,
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we were getting wound up
on history of the constitution
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and of the U.S. experiment
with those 13 colonies
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that had their
established churches,
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but on a Federal level, clearly,
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religion was pretty much
not so much off the table
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but it was a clear separation
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between the civil
and the religious--
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I know, and that's why I said
that's one of the big farces
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that you hear
about this golden age,
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you know,
everybody was religious--
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It was a [ ]
experiment from the beginning.
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It worked out well.
Oh, yeah. It's amazing
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that it's worked
out as well as it has
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but it's not this golden age
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when everybody was religious
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and everybody
was going to church.
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And there was a good
amount of religious persecution.
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The mormon Mitt
Romney's making a good run
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for the
Republican nomination. Yeah.
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But mormons have been
very severely persecuted.
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Death penalty at one point.
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Sure, yeah.
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Extermination order for
what was the Governor of--
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should remember the
state. Yeah, I don't know.
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But they had a very
hard time in this country.
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And then the Catholics-- Sure.
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There was rioting
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where Catholics
were lynched on sight.
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The Ku Klux Klan, that was
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a major leg of
their hate agenda.
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I know, so this whole
idea of this golden age of--
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you know, religion
and everybody was--
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We're probably in
the golden age now.
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Well, for certain people--
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But prophetic that we
know that it's sort of an--
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For certain
people it's, you know,
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the freedoms we have
now are amazing all those--
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and we ought to--
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it's very easy though
we take them for granted.
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We do take it for granted.
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We just assume everybody
can say what they want.
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And I can still
remember years ago seeing--
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I don't even think I'd
become Liberty editor, yet.
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But I remember I
was downtown D.C.
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and this is during the
time of the Rambo movies
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and they had a
shirtless Sylvester Stallone,
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all muscles and
on top they had--
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they
photographed in Ronald Reagan
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and the picture was Ronbo.
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And I remember--
and it said Ronbo.
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I remember a friend of mine
who ended up becoming a lawyer.
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We looked at that and,
you know, at that moment
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we realized three quarters
of the countries of the world,
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you would've done
that to the leader,
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you would've been, you
know, you would've been in jail.
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And we realized look at
this is what freedom is about.
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And it was amazing.
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I think the amazing
thing too that always gets me
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when I read history was
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you think where
the founders came from.
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Most of them, you know,
they were born in America
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but they came out of
the tradition of Europe
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of all this persecution,
of all that what we're,
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you know, I remember John Locke.
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Well, that was
their salutary lesson.
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They wanted to avoid that.
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But also, they
were clearly a product
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of the philosophical
reasoning that came through
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the British, British experiment.
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Yeah, well, they claimed
that they were Englishmen.
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They claimed their
fight against King George
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was the rights
of Englishmen. Yeah.
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And it was funny
'cause England at that time,
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I mean, we would look
back at it, horrified at
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some of the laws
they had. But at that time
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many of the people on the
continent looked to England.
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You know, they
actually had a real Parliament.
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You didn't have
absolute monarchs,
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you had a certain amount.
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I mean, I think the
influence of John Locke--
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Absolutely. you
know, on that had--
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Well, on the back
page of Liberty recently
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we had a quote from John Locke
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and I tried to get the
artist and the designer
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to have a painting with
John Locke like Teletubbies
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where he was the sun
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and his face was shining
out of the sun onto Washington
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because John Locke was central.
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Well, they said
in many ways they--
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I remember
reading, one historian said,
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"Jefferson copied Locke."
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Yeah. But in many ways
they got a lot of good stuff.
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But even back then, Locke,
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we say, as
progressive as he was,
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Locke wanted
religious freedom for everybody
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except for Catholics
and I think atheists--
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Well, we had a
narrow, a narrow view--
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Because Catholics, Catholics,
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who you're
afriad their allegiance
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was gonna be to
the Pope. A good fear.
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And atheists they
figured, they didn't
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have enough to worry about
lying or anything like that
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because doing anything
wrong 'cause they didn't
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worry about the
retribute of God.
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Remember all the
British systems, too.
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We've heard, you
get the Bible there
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and you swear on the Bible
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so an atheist's oath and
word was not to be relied on.
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Yeah. So, again, from
our perspective today,
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see, in many ways,
it is an evolving thing.
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You know, it evolves, it changes
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and ideally, you'd like to think
it's changing for the better.
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And this is what I've said
on this program and in Liberty,
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it's evolving and in many ways
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this is the best
and the worst of times.
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Because we've evolved
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in some ways to
improve our understanding.
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And the concept
of religious freedom
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and even
separationism has become
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enshrined in people's thinking.
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But the threats have
never been worse. Oh, yeah.
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The hazards have
never been higher.
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And I think we're
almost coming to the point
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where it's getting
better, and getting worse,
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and something's gonna give.
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Well, you know,
all I know is I mean,
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it would take something
radical, something major.
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It's very scary
when you think of--
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Dominionism is a radical view.
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Well, the thing is, you know,
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I live in the
Washington D.C. area
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and there are
all sorts of people
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in the
intelligence community there.
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And they are the most
paranoid group of people,
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you ever want to meet.
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All the Liberty
editors. I know they are.
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Yeah, I know they're
about on par with you.
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But they are very
paranoid and it is their [ ]
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I remember I had
one friend who said,
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"I wish I didn't
know the things I know."
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He wouldn't tell
me what they were,
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but you could see
the fear on his face
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and it could
take something boom.
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I remember a
while back reading in
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say let's in a magazine
called "Cigar Aficionado," okay?
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Aficionado?
Yeah, Aficionado, yeah.
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And it was General
Tommy Franks and he warned--
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I remember that
article. Yeah, and you know,
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he warned about-- oh, you
read "Cigar Aficionado" too?
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On the news [5:41]. Yeah.
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My father was a
temperance leader.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. We
know it. Secret's out.
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But he warned about
how all that would take
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some kind of major catastrophe
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and all these freedoms.
You know, I remember after--
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And that's really
where I've come from.
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I believe where
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one 9/11 type of [5:58]
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We've argued over this before.
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But I remember--you
and I sat in your office
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and argued over this.
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After 9/11, I really didn't
care if back then John Ashcroft
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wanted a peek in my
bedroom window or read my email,
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you know, or listen in
my phone conversations.
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If that was gonna
keep Osama Bin Laden
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from nuking me and my family,
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let him do it, you know? So--
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You're a typical American [].
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Well, well, there is a
balance, there is a balance.
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In retrospect though,
that's a very dangerous
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giving away of
brothers. Of course, of course.
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Coming here, on the
way here, I read something.
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I saw something in
the airport in wired
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and I'm not sure because N.S.A.
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the National Security
Agent's charter is for overseas.
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They're not allowed
to spy on Americans.
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They supposedly
will put them in jail.
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In fact, after that
scandal came out a while back,
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I knew one of the
guys at the F.B.I.
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interrogated for 14 hours,
he said 'cause they thought
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he was the one
that did the leak.
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But according to wire,
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they said N.S.A. is
getting the technology
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where they will be able
to know every phone call,
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every text message, every
internet search, everything.
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Now first of all I'm not sure
N.S.A. does that but, I mean,
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you think a little bit
about the big brother society.
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Oh, we're into big brother,
now. But it can be abused.
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It can be abused but at
the same time they're probably,
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doing it in an
attempt for security
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but if the wrong
people got a hold of it,
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and the power
got in, then they--
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That if you're willing to
giving away freedoms for threat.
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What's that?
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That is the-what's that quote?
Oh, the quote from Franklin?
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Yeah. Those that
are willing to give away
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freedom for security deserve
neither or something like that.
00:07:31.58\00:07:34.87
I'm afraid we're
gathered with that mindset.
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Yeah, well,
there's a balance there,
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there's a balance in every
society. And religious freedom,
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if it's nothing else, it's a
personal matter. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
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So to have a government
or indeed, other individuals
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trying to get into
your soul to decide
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what you should believe
in and how you should act,
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that's not good for religious
freedom. Yeah, of course, not.
00:07:51.61\00:07:54.06
But no one's necessarily saying
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that's where they're going
right now. That could happen.
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I don't believe
they intend that,
00:07:56.94\00:07:58.47
but that's a
byproduct of this intrusion
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that technology
is granting to us.
00:08:00.85\00:08:02.54
As much as we love our gizmos
and we love our technology.
00:08:02.57\00:08:05.50
I mean, I can't
live without this thing.
00:08:05.53\00:08:07.55
But what's rather disturbing,
00:08:07.58\00:08:08.95
was it when you found
that they could track you?
00:08:08.98\00:08:10.39
Your extra
girlfriend [8:11], right.
00:08:10.42\00:08:12.44
Yeah, with the-- no,
I don't have [8:13] yet.
00:08:12.47\00:08:13.91
I'm waiting for the
upgrade. But the other thing too
00:08:13.94\00:08:16.49
is there's
software you could get,
00:08:16.52\00:08:18.25
that I hear that you get
it on here. Your phone is off.
00:08:18.28\00:08:21.56
Somebody could hear your
conversation, so in one sense,
00:08:21.59\00:08:25.37
it is as much we--everything--
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Now things have changed
since you started with Liberty.
00:08:27.00\00:08:29.18
This was just barely
thought about--20 years ago.
00:08:29.21\00:08:33.76
We've just
rapidly moved into an era
00:08:33.79\00:08:36.35
where everything is
the public's concern
00:08:36.38\00:08:38.53
or the government's concern.
00:08:38.56\00:08:39.93
Yeah, well, there's
very little privacy now.
00:08:39.96\00:08:41.74
If you really want privacy,
00:08:41.77\00:08:43.43
I don't know how
you're gonna get it.
00:08:43.46\00:08:44.83
I mean, it's, you know, they
can trap where you're going.
00:08:44.86\00:08:47.33
I even think about Google.
00:08:47.36\00:08:49.54
Google, I'm sure 30 years ago,
00:08:49.57\00:08:52.30
what you could
do with Google maps?
00:08:52.33\00:08:54.54
With Google maps was probably,
00:08:54.57\00:08:56.13
top secret
technology in the Pentagon.
00:08:56.16\00:08:59.67
Well, it was, we
know that. Top secret.
00:08:59.70\00:09:01.49
They still have a
higher resolution.
00:09:01.52\00:09:02.89
Every schnook with
a cell phone's got,
00:09:02.92\00:09:05.11
you know, got Google
maps and you could see.
00:09:05.14\00:09:07.82
Can you imagine
what they could do now?
00:09:07.85\00:09:09.48
Well, I know one
thing they're doing now.
00:09:09.51\00:09:10.88
They can go down
and look at your house
00:09:10.91\00:09:12.28
to see if you had a--
if you build a deck there
00:09:12.31\00:09:14.34
and then did you have
a building permit there.
00:09:14.37\00:09:15.83
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, bro,
00:09:15.86\00:09:17.23
that's just the
day and age we live in
00:09:17.26\00:09:18.63
and I don't think it's gonna--
00:09:18.66\00:09:20.31
Sort of Corrie ten Boom
story "No Hiding Place."
00:09:20.34\00:09:22.83
Yeah, yeah. I
don't think that there is
00:09:22.86\00:09:25.13
any turning back
at this point so.
00:09:25.16\00:09:26.53
No, but there's still a
need for Liberty magazine,
00:09:26.56\00:09:29.37
isn't there? Oh, yeah.
00:09:29.40\00:09:31.06
And I think we need to defend it
00:09:31.09\00:09:32.93
and see what you say of this.
00:09:32.96\00:09:34.79
We need to defend it not so
much from a constitutional level
00:09:34.82\00:09:37.62
which was a
nice civil advantage,
00:09:37.65\00:09:39.89
but from a
biblical moral level. Sure.
00:09:39.92\00:09:42.35
Sure, I mean, there's
only God created humans free.
00:09:42.38\00:09:46.60
You know, God created us free
00:09:46.63\00:09:50.08
and the greatest example of the
freedom we have is the cross,
00:09:50.11\00:09:53.30
because Jesus died on the cross
00:09:53.33\00:09:55.95
because He gave
humanity freedom.
00:09:55.98\00:09:59.46
And it was
freedom that's so sacred,
00:09:59.49\00:10:01.61
so fundamental that
rather than take it away,
00:10:01.64\00:10:05.05
God took a chance.
00:10:05.08\00:10:07.12
He took a chance
creating these freebies,
00:10:07.15\00:10:08.93
even knowing what we're gonna do
00:10:08.96\00:10:10.56
but our freedom is so sacred.
00:10:10.59\00:10:12.09
He said, "Hey, I'm
gonna go to the cross
00:10:12.12\00:10:13.49
rather than
deny people freedom."
00:10:13.52\00:10:15.29
And if that's God's
attitude towards it,
00:10:15.32\00:10:17.28
how could we as
beings made in His image
00:10:17.31\00:10:20.13
have any other
attitude about it?
00:10:20.16\00:10:24.42
The Apostle Paul spoke of the
Gospel of Liberty as he put it.
00:10:24.45\00:10:29.97
So as editor of
Liberty magazine, I certainly
00:10:30.00\00:10:33.33
can concur that religious
liberty is vital and integrally
00:10:33.36\00:10:38.12
connected to the gospel message
that we are called to give.
00:10:38.15\00:10:43.54
In talking with
Clifford Goldstein,
00:10:43.57\00:10:45.54
of his tenure as
editor of Liberty magazine
00:10:45.57\00:10:48.33
and remembering back to
his predecessor Roland Hegstad,
00:10:48.36\00:10:52.54
I know that there are some great
topics that have been covered
00:10:52.57\00:10:56.13
and some great
battles that have been fought
00:10:56.16\00:10:58.32
from the editor's position
and through the magazine.
00:10:58.35\00:11:01.47
We are dealing with
life and death issues
00:11:01.50\00:11:04.37
and religious liberty is
never going to be immaterial.
00:11:04.40\00:11:08.40
Sometimes, it might put us
00:11:08.43\00:11:10.43
against special interest groups.
00:11:10.46\00:11:14.30
As I've sometimes
even humorously noted
00:11:14.33\00:11:18.03
even on the Liberty board
meeting, we'll need to hold fast
00:11:18.06\00:11:21.81
and project a
very serious position
00:11:21.84\00:11:24.29
that the magazine is pursuing.
00:11:24.32\00:11:26.74
But above all, when we
talk about religious freedom
00:11:26.77\00:11:29.80
as Paul reminded us, "Religious
freedom is the gospel."
00:11:29.83\00:11:33.91
Religious
freedom is speaking about
00:11:33.94\00:11:36.26
and promoting Jesus
Christ and His love.
00:11:36.29\00:11:40.72
For "Liberty Insider"
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:40.75\00:11:43.77