Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Scott Christiansen
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000175B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:03 Before the break we were talking about, 00:05 really a world in chaos 00:07 in a world of chaotic religion. 00:10 Yeah, that's the best way to put it. 00:14 Your--the emphasis we've had with your book 00:16 is really based on some of the specific your experiences 00:20 you had in Mongolia and China. 00:22 But since, we talk about global religion 00:25 I need to get back on something 00:26 that's occupied my mind a lot since 9/11 particularly. 00:29 Although, really it goes back further, 00:31 my father, used to have many contacts 00:33 in the temperance work 00:34 with the Seventh-day Adventist church 00:35 and in particular many with Islamic world. 00:39 But since 9/11 it's focused my mind 00:41 and many others and I spend a lot of time, 00:43 thinking about Islam, 00:45 and I am sure you read current events. 00:48 And when every time you go through an airport, 00:51 you can't help but thinking terrorist/Islamic terrorist. 00:56 Its not question in my mind that Islam is a looming threat 01:00 to much of what the Christian world stands for, 01:03 which is not always Christ. 01:07 But, I wanna share a book with you 01:08 and then get you comments, 01:09 so that, in the sense we will turn 01:11 things on the head here. 01:15 I don't know if the camera is picking this up, 01:18 but it's a book that I read recently, 01:19 the second by this author a woman named Ayaan Hirsi Ali. 01:24 Her first book was Infidel, 01:26 which earned her death threat or fatwa from Islamic leaders. 01:32 She was a young woman 01:35 brought up in Somalia as a Muslim. 01:39 Escaped from that situation went to Holland, 01:42 took a public life there, 01:43 even became a member of the Dutch Parliament. 01:47 But wrote this book Infidel 01:48 and her life became unattainable. 01:50 She had to travel everywhere with police escort. 01:52 She since come to the United States. 01:54 The second book tells her life story. 02:00 Did you, maybe I should have asked further 02:02 if you've been in countries 02:03 where there's Islamic influence. 02:05 I have not. 02:08 With a caveat I grew up with many, many friends 02:13 that came to the U.S. from Muslim nations. 02:17 And I am not-- 02:19 So you probably had some interesting discussions-- 02:21 I had very interesting discussions. 02:23 Well, let's call them arguments. 02:26 Well, yes but what I want to get out from the back, 02:31 there is something little leads us 02:33 to discussion for the rest of this time. 02:37 Islam was not good to this woman. 02:40 She left it with extreme prejudice they say. 02:44 She has become an atheist. 02:47 She doesn't believe in anything personally. Oh dear. 02:50 Philosophically which is a personal tragedy, I think. 02:52 People need religion, 02:53 I think God made a God shape void in every ones heart. 02:57 But in this book, she is telling her story 02:59 and then at the end she puts up prescriptions 03:02 as to how to deal with this problem with Islam. 03:06 You know, convicted Muslim, I don't like that. 03:09 But she is describing what we all know, 03:11 that there's a conflict 03:12 and some violence by some Muslims 03:15 or something that's troubling the world. 03:18 And I was really taken with what she says at the end. 03:22 Listen to this. 03:23 She says, this is an atheist speaking, 03:28 an ex Muslim, "I have a theory 03:31 that most Muslims are in search of redemptive God." 03:36 It's interesting. Yes. 03:37 They believe that there's a higher power 03:38 and that this higher power is the provider of morality. 03:41 Many Muslim are seeking a God 03:43 or a concept of God that in my view 03:45 meets the description of the Christian God, 03:47 instead they find in Allah. 03:49 And then, on an other spread near the end, 03:53 she says, "The west needs the Christian churches 03:57 to get active again and propagating their faith. 04:00 It needs Christian schools, Christian volunteers, 04:03 the Christian message." 04:04 And, then she concludes with this thought saying, 04:08 "I am not a Christian 04:09 and I have no plans to convert. 04:11 But, I am intrigued by religious institutions 04:14 and the role they play in socializing young people." 04:18 She says, "Some readers may still be skeptical 04:20 that the clash of civilizations 04:21 can be won through religious competition. 04:24 But I know it can work, 04:25 because I have seen it with my own eyes." 04:27 That's an interesting colder activity 04:30 to the Christian world not to fight Islam. 04:33 I mean that's led us very in a bad direction 04:36 as both sides therefore, but to counter it with Christ, 04:40 with the Christian God, 04:41 with the true Christian witness. 04:43 There is a huge work to be done, 04:47 by the brave and the bold 04:51 and it is call that would scare most people. 04:54 I know you've come up against well not up against, 04:57 but you have encountered 04:59 some of the Adventist frontier missions' people. Absolutely. 05:02 In different parts of the world 05:03 and I know that they are the brave 05:05 and the bold, some of them. 05:06 I have good friends who have served 05:08 in very trying situation in places, yeah, within AFM. 05:13 But I don't know the answer, 05:17 but I know that she's given the right lead there. 05:20 We shouldn't just feel that this huge societal 05:24 and religious clashes is only going to end up badly 05:27 that it's all negative. 05:30 Very beneath it in the global collapse 05:33 that you're talking about it in your book. 05:34 I think there's this wonderful opportunity, 05:36 but it has to be Christ. 05:37 Yeah, I'm convinced that there's a huge opportunity 05:42 that we that the age that we're in, 05:44 both political and economic, 05:48 is one that is going to cause people 05:50 to examine their lives anytime in this secular world, 05:55 mostly secular world, that people examine there lives. 05:57 There's this huge opportunity. 05:59 Well, you say mostly secular world, 06:00 I'll challenge you politically on that. 06:02 Okay, good, good. 06:04 You were in China? 06:07 This might have given me a view of a secular world. 06:08 Maybe, well I mean, that I'll debate it with you. 06:12 Material world, material world. 06:14 Yes, I think you can debate it in China. 06:16 I tend to think that, confucian--Confucianism 06:22 and other, I am trying to think 06:25 of the Chinese philosophical/ religious fuse. 06:28 I think that still somewhat it work in China. 06:32 But, I will grant China and grant Australia, 06:36 England and America as largely secular, 06:39 but most of the world 06:40 I think is driven by religious sensibility. 06:44 If not, by personal priority within a worldview, 06:47 that is structured by a religious construct. 06:50 You know, in Asia, I did see, a religion at work. 06:57 And, I don't want to come across the wrong way, 07:00 but the religion that I saw work was Mormonism. 07:03 And now, okay granted, I did live in Hong Kong 07:05 and that's pretty much ground zero for Mormonism, 07:09 I acknowledge that. 07:10 And of course, people everywhere 07:12 do have a spiritual nature. 07:14 But, we have become in my view largely a material world. 07:19 But, we are also in my view 07:21 at the outer edge of an ark 07:23 and are coming back towards much spiritually. 07:25 Absolutely I think that's the direction. 07:28 Well, I hope spirituality, 07:29 but we certainly going and coming back 07:31 to religious consciousness. 07:33 I make the distinction, in fact I have spoken 07:37 at the few religious liberty conferences, 07:38 where I have gotten up and said directly, 07:40 I said there's way too much religion in the world? 07:42 Way too much religion, because you can argue 07:44 from the point of historian, 07:46 religion is being one of the great curses 07:48 upon mankind, but spirituality not enough of that. Yeah. 07:52 And that's the redeeming side of true religion, 07:57 if it's spiritual and elevating 08:00 and speaking to the higher nature of man 08:03 and reaching toward the divine that doesn't ever go bad. 08:07 Now when, religion becomes 08:11 part of a social and political construct 08:14 and not the basis 08:15 for a personal relationship with God. 08:17 You know, how do we then have too much religion 08:20 and are we drowned in spirituality with religion. 08:22 I will put the question back to you. 08:24 Yes, it's a good point, I like that. 08:26 I think we clearly can. 08:28 And you know, there's someone living out in main too, 08:30 I think there's lot to be said, 08:33 since the world is pressing. 08:35 I have been good on poetry today, 08:36 there's a line of poetry it says, 08:37 world is too much for this. 08:40 I really think a lot of modern world is conspiring to occupy, 08:44 frustrate or to blind us, 08:48 so much that we can't think 08:49 of the finer most spiritual things of life. 08:51 And you need to Jesus says, you got up before dawn 08:55 and went to a silent or isolated place in pride. 09:00 It's true you can pray in your mind in any environment, 09:03 but it's very hard 09:04 when everything is crowding on you. 09:05 And this modern world is taking away 09:07 that option very often I think, 09:10 the need for solitude and spirituality. 09:13 See for me it comes down to this, 09:17 that do we have a sufficient relationship with Christ. 09:21 How we build that friendship with Christ 09:25 that we can carry on the work of Christ 09:27 in a world that becomes 09:29 more and more and more unstable and chaotic. 09:31 We must, but it's a challenging question 09:34 we need to ask ourselves. 09:35 I have probably mentioned on this program before, 09:37 but it comes up in my mind naturally 09:39 when my father died, five and half years ago now, 09:43 and not a unique occurrence. 09:46 We all have that one way or other 09:47 but what's very impressive for me in the hospital. 09:50 He was there for about ten days, 09:52 different phases, with surgery and intensive care, 09:55 but he was always very coherent. 09:57 And I had the unusual privilege to, early on, 10:02 I was there for his surgery and so what all 10:05 and then I had to go back to work for few days. 10:07 And I wrote a Liberty editorial in between 10:09 and then I came back when he was in intensive care 10:12 and I shared the editorial 10:13 I had written that featured him. Yeah. 10:15 And he was talking about some of the experiences 10:18 working for the church sharing with people. 10:20 And I read it to him 10:22 and I thought it was a good editorial, 10:23 I--actually was written okay. 10:26 And I have expected him to say as he always did very good, 10:29 you know, great. 10:30 And he didn't look unhappy, 10:32 but he crippled he says its okay, 10:34 he says but there's something missing 10:36 and in that environment you know-- Yeah. 10:39 It wasn't that I minded my father 10:40 different from me, but you know, this is-- 10:42 You didn't expect analysis-- 10:43 This is no tongue no murmur. 10:45 I know, he's gonna be dead in a couple of days 10:47 and he repeated it couple of times 10:48 and then he says, you must present Christ. 10:51 And, that really was, 10:53 it's not like I never thought of that before. 10:55 I have always tried to not just treat religious liberty 11:00 as a legal construct, but there was an object lesson, 11:03 because I was writing about religious liberty there 11:05 and he says present Christ. 11:07 And I am absolutely convinced that 11:09 religious liberty, religious freedom is fine. 11:12 We all want to fight for it, we speak relevant. 11:14 But if you don't turn it back to the author 11:18 to the one that gives us our marching orders, 11:21 it's pointless. 11:22 But let me springboard of your story 11:24 and relate a very short story. 11:26 My wife's grandfather Percy Emanuel 11:31 was a tremendous gentleman, 11:32 a man that I learned a lot from. 11:34 Unfortunately, he declined a lot in his later years 11:36 and his mind eroded away to the point 11:39 where he didn't recognize people 11:41 and yet if you said, let's pray before the meal, 11:45 he would bow his head, 11:46 he would fold his hands and he would pray. 11:48 When he couldn't recognize 11:49 or do anything else he could do that. 11:51 And my standard is what is deep inside us so ingrained-- 11:59 We definitely has something inherent 12:01 that reaches out spirituality. 12:03 Yeah, is our relationship with God 12:05 so deeply ingrained that we can take 12:09 a stand for Him when all else is gone. 12:12 Is our relationship with Him so ingrained 12:15 that we witness for Him when things are going wrong 12:19 or we have lost everything else. 12:21 In this day and age 12:22 when the world is rapidly declining, 12:25 is our relationship with God sufficient for the time. 12:28 That's the question. 12:31 Sometimes the solution to our problem is 12:33 so obvious that people tend not to notice. 12:37 We are in a world that's being 12:38 convulsed by religious conflict. 12:40 In fact the entire war on terrorism 12:43 on one level is nothing but a religious conflict. 12:46 Some years ago I visited the city of Rio de Janeiro 12:49 and I was struck that city that was poverty stricken, 12:52 that hedonistically inclined 12:54 but above it high on the hill stood that 12:57 figure of Christ to redeem with His arms outstretched. 13:00 In the years since I have seen 13:02 a similar figure in other places. 13:04 In Dili, the capital of East Timor, 13:06 a place torn apart by genocide 13:09 that had left as many as 200,000 people dead 13:11 also had Christ with His arms stretched out over that city. 13:16 And there in Emborg, where I visited a city 13:19 that was torn apart by again religious conflict. 13:22 Tens of thousands of people killed, again 13:24 a giant statue of Christ. 13:27 I believe that we need to follow the Christ 13:29 who said, "And I if I be lifted up 13:32 will draw all men unto Me." 13:34 Christ is not an abstraction or just a statues figure. 13:39 He has to be real and vibrant in the lives 13:42 and witness of His followers. 13:45 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17