Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Scott Christiansen
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000173A
|
00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program bringing you up-to-date news, 00:26 views, and discussion on religious liberty events. 00:29 And of course, many events 00:31 that bear on religious and civil liberties. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:37 And my guest on the program is Scott Christiansen, 00:40 an author and a world traveler and many other things, 00:43 a man of many parts. Thank you. 00:45 But my way of introducing you-- 00:48 well I'll-- I'll mention right upfront, 00:50 there's a book you've written 00:51 on global system collapse. Yeah. 00:53 But, you know, when I study history 00:55 and the cataclysms of the past, 00:56 it seems like one of them was a horde of avenging angels 01:00 that came down from the plains of Mongolia 01:03 led by Genghis Khan, right? 01:05 As well, you know, the Chinese 01:06 who were attacked by the hordes of Mongolians, 01:09 I don't think they would use the term, angels. 01:11 No, well, I used with a... No, I understood-- 01:14 But, you know, that was pretty much the scorched death policy 01:17 that they sweep into areas like locust, 01:20 just destroy the civilization that existed. 01:22 You know, it was the Mongolians-- 01:24 probably it's not where you wanted to go 01:25 with this program. But just as they destroy... 01:27 You can take it anyway you want. Okay. 01:28 I will steer it if it's totally wrong. 01:30 The reason that the Mongolians were so fearsome is 01:33 because of--not because they weren't great warriors, 01:35 they were, but was because of their horses. 01:37 Each warrior had at least five, 01:40 but as many as eight horses. 01:42 He would switch mounts during the day, 01:45 so that the horses didn't get tired out. 01:46 He would drink the blood and milk of the horse. 01:49 Sort of self-sufficiently. 01:51 He would kill, they butcher a horse if they needed to. 01:54 And the Mongolians were very good 01:55 at riding their horses 01:56 and absorbing the impact with their knees 01:59 and shooting a bow. They were deadly. 02:01 And it was--it was the super weapon of their time. 02:04 It was, and you know what? 02:05 They outmaneuvered the existing military policy 02:10 of the time, that's what it was. 02:11 They overran everyone and--and 02:12 today you can see a monument to their efficiency 02:17 and that is the Great Wall in China. 02:19 The Great Wall in China was not built 02:21 to keep out the Mongolians. 02:22 It was built to keep out their horses. 02:24 Because without the horses the Mongolians were nothing. 02:26 Yeah, I learned something 02:28 because I've wondered about that wall. 02:30 Just like Hadrian's Wall in England 02:32 and I could never imagine that 02:34 it would literally keep an army at bay. 02:37 But if it was the horses, 02:38 yes, it would be a great impediment. 02:40 Pretty much like a moat for horses. 02:43 The Chinese could handle Mongolians on foot. 02:45 It was the horses 02:46 that allowed the Mongolians to overrun china. 02:48 Yeah, that's the reason that we bring up Mongolian. 02:52 Part of your interesting history is that 02:55 you were working with an organization 02:56 called Adventist Disaster Relief. 02:58 What's the A for. 03:00 Adventist Development, Development. 03:01 Sorry, Development Relief. 03:03 Agency. Agency, agency. 03:04 Yep, yeah and you were based in Mongolia. 03:07 I was the Founding Country Director. 03:09 I was the first into Mongolia. 03:10 No, I didn't pick that up. Okay. 03:12 Now Mongolia was closed for a longtime to communism 03:16 and it's only in recent years 03:17 the people on the west have been there 03:20 and discovered it. 03:22 I have a--a work associate was there recently 03:24 and I got the impression-- Distinct impression 03:26 that Mongolia are still extremely tough living. 03:30 It's not in the modern world by any means. 03:32 It's coming along. 03:34 Mostly because of the 03:35 huge mineral resources that have been discovered there. 03:39 It's the frontier, isn't it? 03:40 Yes, it's very much the frontier. 03:42 It's very much the western, wild western environment 03:45 if I can use that, even though it's Far East. 03:47 But it is-- it is quite a place. 03:50 And you know when we-- when we first moved there, 03:53 they had--not too long before we moved there, 03:57 the Soviet Union had collapsed. 03:59 And of course Mongolia was a client 04:02 state of the Soviet Union 04:03 and they were hermetically sealed 04:05 from the rest of the world. Yeah. 04:06 They didn't know about the outside. 04:07 And trying to run an organization, ADRA, 04:13 but that was a very tough dealing with the government, 04:16 but also looking at the government's attitude 04:18 towards the religion-- Well that's where -- 04:20 you, you're ahead of me. Oh, I am sorry. 04:22 No, that's what--that's what I want to find out. 04:25 This was a closed system, not known for plurality of faith, 04:31 how did you find their attitude toward as-- 04:34 As it's slowly opening. 04:35 How was their attitude toward religion? 04:37 Do they indeed in their own system have much, 04:40 what you call, Religious Liberty. 04:42 Well-- How do you characterize this? 04:44 We're going back, now first I must say. 04:46 That when we went to Mongolia, 04:48 I and my family, my kids were young, 04:50 they're not so young now. 04:53 In fact I had only 2 kids at that time. 04:54 Now I have 4. But this was 1994. 04:58 So it's going back a number of years. 05:00 And you know the Mongolians were communist 05:04 and quite ruthless. 05:07 But one of the things that the communists did early on 05:10 and we're talking about 1920 around there. 05:13 One of the things that communist did early on 05:15 was kill off almost all of the Buddhist priests 05:19 there--that were in Mongolia. 05:20 Equivalent in other communist country, 05:21 they decapitate the church structure. 05:24 And--and this was their attitude. 05:25 They saved a couple monasteries. 05:27 They had a couple communist priests, 05:29 you know, for show. 05:32 But the attitude towards the government 05:33 during communism towards religion 05:35 was that religion was--was toxic 05:37 and was absolutely not allowed for. 05:39 So you saw signs that they had been fairly successful 05:41 and that religion was not very vibrant 05:44 even in those post communist years. 05:45 Well, you know it's interesting 05:47 because there was just great release of emotion 05:50 when the communists fell and the Mongolians said, 05:52 well, you know, we're gonna get on with whatever is next. 05:55 You know, we got freedoms now. 05:58 And if you ask the average Mongolian, 06:01 you know, what is your belief? 06:02 And they would say, well, I'm Buddhist. 06:06 But they had no idea what that meant. 06:08 You know it was like-- It was like the U.S. 06:12 Yeah, it was a social thing. 06:14 But now-- You're right though. 06:16 You know in the global war on terror 06:18 where we're dealing with Islamic world, 06:20 that is often deeply committed to the Islamic tenets. 06:24 You know they see the Christian west 06:26 and they think we're all Christians. 06:27 We're normally all Christians. 06:29 But I'm told millions of westerners 06:32 that have little real idea 06:33 of what it means to be a Christian-- 06:35 But most of the people in the country 06:37 who are very much of a harden mindset, 06:40 religion is bad. 06:41 It maybe that their economic structure change 06:44 from socialism to free market you know. 06:47 But they didn't change their attitude 06:48 towards religion and for that very reason, 06:51 the people that came into the early Adventist church 06:55 and Adventist Frontier missions by the way, 06:57 some very brave people entered, 07:00 Brad and Cathy Jolly entered Mongolia 07:03 right after it fell. 07:04 And lived through times on the breadlines 07:07 and they're really very, very different-- 07:09 very brave people, wonderful people. 07:10 Yeah, it's worth mentioning this 07:12 because these are the real frontline missionaries 07:14 around the world. Absolutely. 07:15 And you were in the position to observe, 07:17 but with ADRA, which is run 07:18 by the Seventh-day Adventist church 07:20 but using government moneys 07:21 and through government agencies. 07:23 The rules of engagement are pretty strict. 07:26 You're not there as a missionary. 07:27 You cannot. 07:28 You would be ejected pretty quickly 07:29 if you acted that way. 07:30 I would, ADRA would have been thrown out of the country 07:32 had I been a missionary. 07:34 It does not mean that I did not have 07:36 my sympathies with AFM. 07:38 And that doesn't mean that I did not greatly encourage 07:41 the new church members. 07:43 But you know there were new church members. 07:45 But there wasn't one of them 07:47 that was over 19 years of age. Hmm. 07:49 Because they had an open mind. 07:52 Their minds were not yet formed in cement. 07:55 Older people absolutely would not accept Christianity. 07:59 You know, interestingly enough, 08:01 of course, I was with ADRA 08:02 and trying to build an organization 08:03 and trying to provide social services 08:05 to tremendous need, 08:08 none of my employees were older than 19. 08:12 That was the--is it just that they were the most open, 08:14 or was the population in general quite young? 08:17 Well, the population there-- It was a very young country. 08:19 But there were a lot of people in the country 08:21 that had professional degrees 08:22 and had worked under communism. 08:25 But for that very reason I wouldn't hire them, 08:26 because their idea was that work 08:29 consisted of just a few hours 08:31 of nominal labor each day. Yeah. 08:33 And they-- That's true and under communism people 08:35 did exactly what was required out of them 08:37 and nothing more. 08:38 And in Mongolia it was very, very little. 08:40 You had to hire people that had no real skills 08:44 but also hadn't been yet poisoned by the system 08:46 that was previously in place. Interesting. 08:49 So difficult spot for religious freedom 08:52 and for religious plurality, 08:53 but I get the impression from you and others 08:57 that there's great potential in this. 08:59 It's improving there, it's not getting worse. 09:02 They're not tightening down any. 09:04 You know, it has opened up. Yeah. 09:05 Now in the early days when we would go to church on Sabbath, 09:10 you know there would be six or seven 09:12 or sometimes a dozen or two dozen as time went on, 09:15 young people in the church, very young people, 09:18 some of whom came and went. 09:19 And some of whom stayed as regular members 09:20 and they were the foundation of the church. 09:23 But probably, once every month or two months, 09:27 we'd have to move some place new. 09:29 Because the people that were renting the building to us 09:32 caught on the fact that this was a Christian group 09:34 and didn't want have anything to do with us 09:36 and threw us out. We were a homeless church. 09:37 Interesting. In the early days. 09:39 That was their government codes 09:42 or policies or regulations 09:43 that would inhibit a church forming 09:46 and worshiping in a spot. No. 09:48 That was just local prejudice. 09:50 That was-- Well that was 09:51 75 years of the established tradition 09:54 that churches were bad. 09:55 That was-- That was hardened fast. 09:56 Now today--today it's very different. 09:59 Today there's well over 10:00 a thousand members in the church. 10:02 There are local Mongolian missionaries that are working. 10:05 Some of whom I went to church with, 10:07 you know, back in the day. 10:12 But the interesting thing about Mongolia 10:16 and other countries is 10:17 the situation could revert instantly. 10:21 The opening that we have is unsure. 10:24 But we just need to take advantage 10:25 when we can, you can't know tomorrow. 10:27 You can't know tomorrow. 10:28 But I was going to throw in before 10:30 like on meeting in homes and in formal places. 10:35 Obviously, hard there, but people don't realize 10:38 even in the United States 10:40 we run the risk of local prejudice. 10:42 We have an article coming up in Liberty Magazine, 10:45 I think it's a story that comes from San Juan 10:48 Capistrano in California. 10:51 People were having Bible studies 10:53 and midweek prayer meetings in their home 10:55 and the neighbors objected 10:56 and the codes restricted gatherings like that 11:00 and they were fined and then it was stopped. Wow! 11:03 Might not have happened in another neighborhood, 11:05 might not happened there again, 11:06 but we need to realize that 11:08 these things can happen here 11:09 and especially if there was a continuing social frown 11:14 on a certain type of religious activity. 11:16 There's mechanisms in place even in the west, 11:18 even in the United States that could restrict it. 11:20 But, you know, we often hear about Mongolia place. 11:23 But it can happen here. Yeah. 11:25 And as you say, it could get worse there, 11:27 it could get worse here. 11:28 The world is dynamic and your book system global 11:31 on global system collapse... 11:33 Planet in distress. Yeah. 11:34 Well, describing it rather than naming it. 11:36 Okay, all right, and I beg your pardon. 11:38 Well-- An author, you know, he is-- 11:40 Yeah, but the good point is 11:41 you're talking about the systems 11:42 that are collapsing, that creates a dynamic situation 11:47 that could actually adversely effect 11:48 very easily and quickly civil and religious liberties. 11:52 Yes. It's quite true. 11:54 And the reason for that is because we've-- 11:58 as we have discussed on our previous program, 12:01 we've reached a point where on a global basis 12:04 we are now-- We are no longer in 12:06 an environment of expanding resources. 12:08 Which is for anyone who's alive today 12:10 that's all they've known. 12:12 Whether they're wealthy or poor, 12:14 expanding resources is all they've known, 12:16 but now we've reached the tipping point, 12:19 we're over the hump, sort to speak, 12:20 we're on the downhill side and we're in an environment 12:23 of contracting resources and resource scarcity. 12:25 Now did you see those signs of that 12:27 resource scarcity in Mongolia? 12:30 I, well, yes and no. 12:33 I definitely saw signs of global change. 12:38 And I definitely saw signs of system change 12:40 when it was pointed out to me. 12:42 What I did see, of course, the Soviet Union 12:45 directly subsidized 80% of the Mongolian economy 12:49 and when they went away, everything collapsed. 12:52 Yes, there's a short term collapse, 12:54 it might be from other causes. 12:55 Now, let's take a break, we'll be back 12:57 to discuss further with author Scott Chrisitansen. 13:01 Mongolia, his experience there, 13:03 and so maybe some things we can extrapolate from that. 13:05 Stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17