Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bruce N. Cameron
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000170A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program that brings you up to date 00:26 news and discussion on religious liberty developments 00:31 around the world and of course in the United States. 00:34 I have a very special guest on the program, 00:37 Professor Bruce Cameron who is the--and I've to read this. 00:40 I've been forgetting it on summary of the programs. 00:42 You're the Reed Larson Professor 00:45 of Law at Regent University 00:48 and a Seventh-day Adventist, 00:51 a lawyer as well as a law professor. 00:55 Religious liberty is very important 00:57 and this program confirms that. 01:00 But religious liberty will not survive 01:03 if we just have people litigating here or there or if, 01:07 you know, there is legal discussion on it. 01:09 We really need grassroots operative, don't we? 01:12 People would--they want to get with the program. 01:14 They want to be foot soldiers, if you like, 01:17 to defend this very important principle. 01:20 I agree, Lincoln. 01:21 By the way it's great to be here 01:23 and I love to discuss religious liberty 01:25 and I love to discuss the law and law school teaching. 01:30 And see that's one of great things 01:32 about how life these days for me. 01:35 Within my orbit come young men 01:37 and young women who say, 01:39 "I want to make a difference for the kingdom of God. 01:42 I want to advance the kingdom. 01:43 I want to help righteousness 01:46 to be respected in the United States." 01:49 That's--that's the kind of effect. 01:51 Well, let me interject something 01:52 because when we're saying the law, 01:54 you know, in the Old Testament, 01:55 it says the lawyer came up to Jesus. 01:58 You know, what does the law say, 01:59 what are they talking about? 02:01 You got to watch out for those lawyers, right? 02:03 Well, no, but they were often--often the cynics, 02:07 but it wasn't really secular lawyers we understand now. 02:10 They were students of the law of God. 02:12 That's right. That's right. 02:14 And they didn't make as much distinction 02:16 as we do know because they were not, 02:18 at least, well they were not in the theocracy, 02:20 but they were still in the theocratic mindset 02:22 which is why Jesus brought them to task, in my view. 02:26 But you've made a good point. 02:30 Even today a lawyer that goes into the law, 02:32 when you're talking about religious liberties 02:33 most important I believe that they-- 02:35 we committed to the kingdom of God and His principles. 02:38 And bringing that's sense ability to the law, 02:41 I think will work secretly. 02:43 Yeah, that is one of the things 02:44 about Regent University School of Law. 02:47 You've mentioned that I'm a professor there. 02:49 And Regent University School of Law 02:52 not only teaches our law students about man's law, 02:55 but we teach them about God's law and how they two relate. 03:00 This is something that is a real need in the world. 03:04 There was recently a report, 03:06 a study on the law schools of the nation. 03:10 And the problem that seem by the study 03:14 was that students in the normal law schools 03:18 in United States were learning about law, 03:21 but the learning was completely apart 03:25 from any sense of morality, any sense of right and wrong, 03:31 and the concern was that we were developing 03:34 a generation of lawyers 03:37 who did not have any real backdrop 03:41 and which to evaluate what they're doing, 03:44 the causes that they are advancing, 03:47 not to say this is a Christian or non-Christian 03:50 or anything like that, 03:51 but simply a problem with basic morality. 03:54 They need a moral campus. That's right. 03:57 And so the idea is, in fact 03:59 there is a big push right now. 04:00 And Regent is trying to take the lead in this area 04:04 to say well not only it's a desire 04:07 and a need for that, but Regent is a leader in this. 04:10 We've been doing this for a long time 04:13 to take the students and say, 04:14 well you're interested in this law, 04:16 let's say criminal law, 04:18 the law against self-incrimination. 04:20 Did you know that's a teaching of the Bible? 04:22 And that really came from Jewish Law, 04:25 that our Lord took the Fifth Amendment in His trial? 04:29 Uh, that's good. 04:30 You know, some of Seventh-day Adventists 04:33 viewers may have opinions on region, 04:35 and you know, there's a lot of suspicion 04:39 between different religions and even some 04:41 of the different Protestant groups. 04:43 And you know the best I could say 04:45 is I have a very high opinion of Regent, 04:47 particularly since you have it. 04:50 You know, they're subject to the temptation. 04:54 I think that is appearing a lot more lately in America 04:59 for people of faith to mill church and state 05:03 to seek an earthly solution to a spiritual problem. 05:06 As along as there is a separation 05:08 of church and state, people with that mindset 05:10 moving into the public spirits, it's wonderful isn't it? 05:13 Well, it's a great thing. 05:15 Regent is a nondenominational Christian School. 05:18 And so, as you know, 05:19 the Seventh-day Adventist churches, I think, 05:22 it's 10 colleges or universities 05:25 in the United States and those 05:27 colleges and universities exists, 05:29 so that Seventh-day Adventist parents can send their 05:31 Seventh-day Adventists children there. 05:34 To get across into the education. 05:35 That's exactly right. 05:37 So for a student who's interested in the law 05:40 and is interested in Christ Center education Regent 05:44 is that though the church has no law school of its own, 05:47 but they could come to Regent 05:49 and know that there are group of law professors there 05:54 who care about God, who care about obedience to God, 05:58 who care about treating the students as, 06:00 you know, God teaches us 06:02 to treat those with whom we work, 06:05 and people who want to help them 06:07 to understand of the law and God's law integrate. 06:11 Now I can see this going in two directions. 06:16 I don't think Regent is involved in this, 06:19 but there's a line of thinking 06:21 among many Christians in the US, which I think, 06:23 I know is a fallacy to sort of try to see 06:27 in the constitution in American History, 06:30 evidence that this was structured 06:33 and should be modeled after 06:37 the Old Testament or the New Testament, 06:38 but a Biblical Christian model, that's not good. 06:42 The other side that I pick up from law 06:44 not Regent again is because you've already told me 06:46 that although it's not true. 06:48 But I believe that lawyers 06:51 and laws not always with absolutes as we precede it. 06:55 And that can easily lead to amorality. 06:58 Well... Lack of morality. 07:00 So I think it's necessary to do 07:02 what you're saying to have Christian lawyers 07:05 who have a strong moral base of their own 07:08 as they move into the practice of law. 07:10 It will be a campus for them. Well that's-- 07:12 But not a template for establishing law 07:15 that they think it will be bad to try 07:17 to consciously structure American law 07:20 as a reflection of the entire 07:23 moral structures of the Bible, 07:24 which are admirable for an individual. 07:27 But as you say with the trade unions, 07:31 you don't want to have someone 07:34 to thinking for you and force upon you. 07:38 Well, the United States is not a theocracy. No. 07:40 And I don't think that anyone at Regent 07:44 wants to make the United States a theocracy. 07:46 But I would think that every Christian would say, 07:49 "I want our leaders to be righteous. 07:52 I want our leaders to be concerned 07:53 about the relationship with the God. 07:55 I want our leaders to be just and moral." 07:58 And so Regent's goal is to create 08:01 Christian leadership to change the world. 08:04 And that includes being involved in government. 08:07 For example, the governor of the Common Wealth of Virginia 08:10 where Regent is located, is a Regent graduate? 08:15 The federal representative down there, 08:17 the congress person is a Regent graduate. 08:20 You know that's wonderful that had to fit young people 08:22 to move into public service like that. 08:25 It's not a direct analogy, 08:26 but it just reminds me in the schools of the prophets 08:29 to teach people to build up, you know, 08:35 the moral fiber of the people of a country. 08:38 You see that's part of the joy in my life 08:40 because young people come to Regent. 08:43 They're committed Christians. 08:44 They want to advance the kingdom of God 08:46 and they're looking for me to advise them 08:49 on how they might do that and to educate them 08:52 in these areas of law where they like to make a difference. 08:54 Well, teachings make a huge 08:56 difference to someone's life directly. 08:58 You see Mr. Gipson or what's that other-- 09:03 another teacher's opus, what's that were weird? 09:06 But I know when I look back 09:08 on my experiences, some of the teachers 09:09 I had that really nice and support me. 09:12 And not just by what they taught, but how they taught it. 09:15 And I'm sure with you. 09:17 You live in brave, the vitality of these 09:21 moral and legal principles that you provided. 09:23 It's--it's a joy because since I continue to litigate 09:28 because of one of the staffs from the National Right 09:30 to Work Legal Defense Foundation, 09:31 I'm able to talk with the students 09:33 and teach the students about cases 09:35 that I've litigated in the past and the foundation 09:38 is founding in litigation right now. 09:41 And it's all, I'd like say plus students at Regent 09:44 get to work with me on something 09:45 called The National Right to work Practicum, 09:48 in which they're able to be involved 09:50 in cases that the foundation funds. 09:54 This is my fifth year at the law school. 09:56 Every year that I've been at the law school, 09:58 students of Regent had been able to work with me 10:00 on cases before the United States Supreme Court. 10:02 I was gonna ask you, how many cases 10:04 have you dealt with the Supreme Court directly? 10:07 I don't-- I don't know. 10:09 I will say this, so there's honesty 10:12 and integrity with your audience. 10:14 I've never stood before 10:15 the US Supreme Court and argued the case. 10:18 But I've had many cases in which 10:20 I was either working with the council 10:23 who argued before the court, 10:25 for example we argued a case two weeks ago 10:27 before the US Supreme Court or involved in trying 10:32 to keep a case from going to the US Supreme Court. 10:35 I tell people, Lincoln, that the reason 10:36 why I have not had a long list of cases 10:39 before the United States Supreme Court 10:41 is because with God's blessing, I also win. 10:44 And so I'm not going to the Supreme Court 10:46 asking them to review. 10:48 I'm there trying to say, "Don't take this case. 10:51 It was correctly decided." 10:52 And people need to know that things 10:54 only go to the Supreme Court after the all-- 10:56 well, how many steps are there? This is the-- 10:58 United States Federal District Court, 11:00 United States Court of Appeals, and then the US Supreme Court. 11:03 And the US Supreme Court accepts 11:05 less than 1% of the cases that they come to them 11:08 which is actually a testament 11:10 to the litigation program with the National Right 11:12 to Work Legal Defense Foundation. 11:14 In the last four years, we've had three cases 11:17 before the US Supreme Court. 11:19 It's a relatively small litigation staff, 11:21 but we're litigating cutting edge cases 11:24 and other lawyers in the staff are losing. 11:28 But I'm helping them to they try 11:29 to win before the Supreme Court. 11:30 Well, if God is with you or against you. 11:33 They tease about saying those kind of things. That I'll hear. 11:35 I think you've given a pretty good picture 11:38 for young Christians or people of deep faith 11:43 going into the law as the way to protect faith 11:47 and of course, better society as the whole. 11:51 We started off by talking about ways 11:53 that we can activate people 11:54 to become involved in religious liberty. 11:55 Of course, this is one subset to go into the law, isn't it? 11:58 Yes, yes. You know, lawyers are really the ones 12:02 who've changed agents in the sunset, 12:05 mostly legislatives are lawyers. 12:08 Of course, if you're out there litigating 12:10 as a judge to change the law 12:13 or a lawyer at doing that, 12:14 either it's a judge or it's the-- 12:16 So the legislatives are comedians 12:17 before I ask the question. 12:20 I mean quite literally. 12:22 But, yeah, I mean that's always been the case 12:24 at least in fairly, in the last few centuries 12:28 of western countries and known in the matter of lawyers 12:32 end up in the higher resolutions of government 12:35 I think because it attracts them. 12:37 But it shouldn't be 12:40 prerequisite to the public life. 12:43 Oh, I don't know. I think you gotta be 12:44 a Regent graduate to be in public office. 12:47 But may be we should broaden it a bit. 12:49 What would your suggestions 12:50 be for those viewers who are watching it? 12:52 And obviously by watching this program, 12:54 they're concerned about religious freedom. 12:56 What can they do to really to make a difference 12:59 other than donate to liberty magazine? 13:02 Well said. You know, we send them liberty 13:03 and I know you've written for liberty a lot, 13:06 you're well aware of it way before I was the editor. 13:10 But you know liberty magazine goes to these thought leaders. 13:12 It goes to many of the lawyers. 13:14 So I remember maybe you can correct me on the figures, 13:16 I've heard that there're 13:17 about 300,000 lawyers in the United States. 13:20 I don't know what the number is. But we have. 13:22 We don't cover all of those, 13:23 but there're nearly 200,000 subscriptions 13:26 we send to senators, congressmen, 13:30 lawyers, judges, and so on. 13:31 Public officials, mayors, 13:33 we want these people to read the magazine. 13:36 We'll come back after the break 13:37 and continue with this discussion 13:39 and may be let you know some cues as to how 13:42 you can become involved with religious liberty. |
Revised 2014-12-17