Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:22.70\00:00:24.64
This is the program
that brings you up to date
00:00:24.65\00:00:26.57
news and discussion on
religious liberty developments
00:00:26.58\00:00:31.50
around the world and of
course in the United States.
00:00:31.51\00:00:34.41
I have a very
special guest on the program,
00:00:34.42\00:00:37.36
Professor Bruce Cameron who
is the--and I've to read this.
00:00:37.37\00:00:40.54
I've been forgetting it
on summary of the programs.
00:00:40.55\00:00:42.84
You're the Reed Larson Professor
00:00:42.85\00:00:45.19
of Law at Regent University
00:00:45.20\00:00:48.52
and a Seventh-day Adventist,
00:00:48.53\00:00:51.30
a lawyer as well
as a law professor.
00:00:51.31\00:00:55.32
Religious
liberty is very important
00:00:55.33\00:00:57.25
and this program confirms that.
00:00:57.26\00:01:00.70
But religious
liberty will not survive
00:01:00.71\00:01:03.69
if we just have people
litigating here or there or if,
00:01:03.70\00:01:07.08
you know, there is
legal discussion on it.
00:01:07.09\00:01:09.08
We really need
grassroots operative, don't we?
00:01:09.09\00:01:12.06
People would--they want
to get with the program.
00:01:12.07\00:01:14.92
They want to be foot
soldiers, if you like,
00:01:14.93\00:01:17.47
to defend this very
important principle.
00:01:17.48\00:01:20.37
I agree, Lincoln.
00:01:20.38\00:01:21.66
By the way it's great to be here
00:01:21.67\00:01:23.16
and I love to
discuss religious liberty
00:01:23.17\00:01:25.51
and I love to discuss the
law and law school teaching.
00:01:25.52\00:01:30.00
And see that's
one of great things
00:01:30.01\00:01:32.10
about how life
these days for me.
00:01:32.11\00:01:35.03
Within my orbit come young men
00:01:35.04\00:01:37.75
and young women who say,
00:01:37.76\00:01:39.77
"I want to make a difference
for the kingdom of God.
00:01:39.78\00:01:41.99
I want to advance the kingdom.
00:01:42.00\00:01:43.78
I want to help righteousness
00:01:43.79\00:01:46.22
to be respected in
the United States."
00:01:46.23\00:01:49.88
That's--that's
the kind of effect.
00:01:49.89\00:01:51.77
Well, let me interject something
00:01:51.78\00:01:52.81
because when
we're saying the law,
00:01:52.82\00:01:54.50
you know, in the Old Testament,
00:01:54.51\00:01:55.54
it says the
lawyer came up to Jesus.
00:01:55.55\00:01:58.30
You know, what does the law say,
00:01:58.31\00:01:59.47
what are they talking about?
00:01:59.48\00:02:01.33
You got to watch out
for those lawyers, right?
00:02:01.34\00:02:03.49
Well, no, but they were
often--often the cynics,
00:02:03.50\00:02:07.26
but it wasn't really secular
lawyers we understand now.
00:02:07.27\00:02:10.76
They were
students of the law of God.
00:02:10.77\00:02:12.74
That's right. That's right.
00:02:12.75\00:02:14.47
And they didn't
make as much distinction
00:02:14.48\00:02:16.07
as we do know
because they were not,
00:02:16.08\00:02:18.45
at least, well they
were not in the theocracy,
00:02:18.46\00:02:20.42
but they were still
in the theocratic mindset
00:02:20.43\00:02:22.32
which is why Jesus brought
them to task, in my view.
00:02:22.33\00:02:26.77
But you've made a good point.
00:02:26.78\00:02:30.26
Even today a lawyer
that goes into the law,
00:02:30.27\00:02:32.31
when you're talking
about religious liberties
00:02:32.32\00:02:33.72
most important I
believe that they--
00:02:33.73\00:02:35.53
we committed to the kingdom
of God and His principles.
00:02:35.54\00:02:38.76
And bringing that's
sense ability to the law,
00:02:38.77\00:02:40.98
I think will work secretly.
00:02:40.99\00:02:43.46
Yeah, that is one of the things
00:02:43.47\00:02:44.79
about Regent
University School of Law.
00:02:44.80\00:02:47.04
You've mentioned that
I'm a professor there.
00:02:47.05\00:02:49.81
And Regent
University School of Law
00:02:49.82\00:02:52.03
not only teaches our law
students about man's law,
00:02:52.04\00:02:55.66
but we teach them about God's
law and how they two relate.
00:02:55.67\00:03:00.18
This is something that
is a real need in the world.
00:03:00.19\00:03:04.32
There was recently a report,
00:03:04.33\00:03:06.65
a study on the law
schools of the nation.
00:03:06.66\00:03:10.83
And the problem
that seem by the study
00:03:10.84\00:03:14.24
was that students in
the normal law schools
00:03:14.25\00:03:18.38
in United States
were learning about law,
00:03:18.39\00:03:21.93
but the learning
was completely apart
00:03:21.94\00:03:25.48
from any sense of morality,
any sense of right and wrong,
00:03:25.49\00:03:31.07
and the concern was
that we were developing
00:03:31.08\00:03:34.73
a generation of lawyers
00:03:34.74\00:03:37.03
who did not have
any real backdrop
00:03:37.04\00:03:41.29
and which to
evaluate what they're doing,
00:03:41.30\00:03:44.69
the causes that
they are advancing,
00:03:44.70\00:03:47.40
not to say this is a
Christian or non-Christian
00:03:47.41\00:03:50.15
or anything like that,
00:03:50.16\00:03:51.19
but simply a
problem with basic morality.
00:03:51.20\00:03:54.74
They need a moral
campus. That's right.
00:03:54.75\00:03:57.04
And so the idea is, in fact
00:03:57.05\00:03:59.00
there is a big push right now.
00:03:59.01\00:04:00.71
And Regent is trying to
take the lead in this area
00:04:00.72\00:04:04.36
to say well not
only it's a desire
00:04:04.37\00:04:07.28
and a need for that, but
Regent is a leader in this.
00:04:07.29\00:04:10.66
We've been doing
this for a long time
00:04:10.67\00:04:13.20
to take the students and say,
00:04:13.21\00:04:14.39
well you're
interested in this law,
00:04:14.40\00:04:16.92
let's say criminal law,
00:04:16.93\00:04:18.15
the law against
self-incrimination.
00:04:18.16\00:04:19.99
Did you know that's a
teaching of the Bible?
00:04:20.00\00:04:22.29
And that really
came from Jewish Law,
00:04:22.30\00:04:25.06
that our Lord took the
Fifth Amendment in His trial?
00:04:25.07\00:04:29.55
Uh, that's good.
00:04:29.56\00:04:30.67
You know, some of
Seventh-day Adventists
00:04:30.68\00:04:32.99
viewers may have
opinions on region,
00:04:33.00\00:04:35.25
and you know,
there's a lot of suspicion
00:04:35.26\00:04:39.55
between different
religions and even some
00:04:39.56\00:04:41.43
of the different
Protestant groups.
00:04:41.44\00:04:43.66
And you know
the best I could say
00:04:43.67\00:04:45.81
is I have a very
high opinion of Regent,
00:04:45.82\00:04:47.91
particularly since you have it.
00:04:47.92\00:04:50.38
You know, they're
subject to the temptation.
00:04:50.39\00:04:54.34
I think that is appearing
a lot more lately in America
00:04:54.35\00:04:59.50
for people of faith
to mill church and state
00:04:59.51\00:05:03.00
to seek an earthly
solution to a spiritual problem.
00:05:03.01\00:05:06.83
As along as
there is a separation
00:05:06.84\00:05:08.18
of church and state,
people with that mindset
00:05:08.19\00:05:10.88
moving into the public spirits,
it's wonderful isn't it?
00:05:10.89\00:05:13.74
Well, it's a great thing.
00:05:13.75\00:05:15.54
Regent is a nondenominational
Christian School.
00:05:15.55\00:05:18.62
And so, as you know,
00:05:18.63\00:05:19.85
the Seventh-day
Adventist churches, I think,
00:05:19.86\00:05:22.18
it's 10 colleges or universities
00:05:22.19\00:05:25.01
in the United States and those
00:05:25.02\00:05:27.04
colleges and
universities exists,
00:05:27.05\00:05:29.09
so that Seventh-day
Adventist parents can send their
00:05:29.10\00:05:31.88
Seventh-day
Adventists children there.
00:05:31.89\00:05:34.13
To get across
into the education.
00:05:34.14\00:05:35.57
That's exactly right.
00:05:35.58\00:05:37.25
So for a student
who's interested in the law
00:05:37.26\00:05:40.46
and is interested in
Christ Center education Regent
00:05:40.47\00:05:44.27
is that though the church
has no law school of its own,
00:05:44.28\00:05:47.80
but they could come to Regent
00:05:47.81\00:05:49.74
and know that there are
group of law professors there
00:05:49.75\00:05:54.86
who care about God, who
care about obedience to God,
00:05:54.87\00:05:57.98
who care about
treating the students as,
00:05:57.99\00:06:00.56
you know, God teaches us
00:06:00.57\00:06:02.07
to treat those
with whom we work,
00:06:02.08\00:06:05.29
and people who want to help them
00:06:05.30\00:06:07.47
to understand of the
law and God's law integrate.
00:06:07.48\00:06:11.28
Now I can see this
going in two directions.
00:06:11.29\00:06:16.33
I don't think
Regent is involved in this,
00:06:16.34\00:06:19.51
but there's a line of thinking
00:06:19.52\00:06:21.08
among many Christians
in the US, which I think,
00:06:21.09\00:06:23.92
I know is a fallacy
to sort of try to see
00:06:23.93\00:06:27.35
in the constitution
in American History,
00:06:27.36\00:06:30.90
evidence that
this was structured
00:06:30.91\00:06:33.73
and should be modeled after
00:06:33.74\00:06:37.23
the Old Testament
or the New Testament,
00:06:37.26\00:06:38.71
but a Biblical Christian
model, that's not good.
00:06:38.72\00:06:42.74
The other side
that I pick up from law
00:06:42.75\00:06:44.79
not Regent again is
because you've already told me
00:06:44.80\00:06:46.81
that although it's not true.
00:06:46.82\00:06:48.07
But I believe that lawyers
00:06:48.08\00:06:51.62
and laws not always with
absolutes as we precede it.
00:06:51.63\00:06:55.56
And that can
easily lead to amorality.
00:06:55.57\00:06:58.81
Well... Lack of morality.
00:06:58.82\00:07:00.67
So I think it's necessary to do
00:07:00.68\00:07:02.50
what you're saying to
have Christian lawyers
00:07:02.51\00:07:05.76
who have a strong
moral base of their own
00:07:05.77\00:07:08.81
as they move into
the practice of law.
00:07:08.82\00:07:10.57
It will be a campus
for them. Well that's--
00:07:10.58\00:07:12.72
But not a template
for establishing law
00:07:12.73\00:07:15.28
that they think
it will be bad to try
00:07:15.29\00:07:16.98
to consciously
structure American law
00:07:16.99\00:07:20.55
as a reflection of the entire
00:07:20.56\00:07:23.52
moral structures of the Bible,
00:07:23.53\00:07:24.89
which are
admirable for an individual.
00:07:24.90\00:07:27.17
But as you say
with the trade unions,
00:07:27.18\00:07:31.36
you don't want to have someone
00:07:31.37\00:07:34.05
to thinking for
you and force upon you.
00:07:34.06\00:07:38.38
Well, the United
States is not a theocracy. No.
00:07:38.39\00:07:40.64
And I don't think
that anyone at Regent
00:07:40.65\00:07:43.99
wants to make the
United States a theocracy.
00:07:44.00\00:07:46.28
But I would think that
every Christian would say,
00:07:46.29\00:07:49.47
"I want our
leaders to be righteous.
00:07:49.48\00:07:52.16
I want our
leaders to be concerned
00:07:52.17\00:07:53.71
about the
relationship with the God.
00:07:53.72\00:07:55.62
I want our leaders
to be just and moral."
00:07:55.63\00:07:58.41
And so Regent's
goal is to create
00:07:58.42\00:08:01.66
Christian
leadership to change the world.
00:08:01.67\00:08:04.32
And that includes
being involved in government.
00:08:04.33\00:08:07.07
For example, the governor of
the Common Wealth of Virginia
00:08:07.08\00:08:10.51
where Regent is
located, is a Regent graduate?
00:08:10.52\00:08:15.05
The federal
representative down there,
00:08:15.06\00:08:17.05
the congress person
is a Regent graduate.
00:08:17.06\00:08:20.01
You know that's wonderful
that had to fit young people
00:08:20.02\00:08:22.41
to move into
public service like that.
00:08:22.42\00:08:25.72
It's not a direct analogy,
00:08:25.73\00:08:26.95
but it just reminds me in
the schools of the prophets
00:08:26.96\00:08:29.17
to teach people to
build up, you know,
00:08:29.18\00:08:35.12
the moral fiber of
the people of a country.
00:08:35.13\00:08:38.80
You see that's part
of the joy in my life
00:08:38.81\00:08:40.80
because young
people come to Regent.
00:08:40.81\00:08:43.06
They're committed Christians.
00:08:43.07\00:08:44.35
They want to
advance the kingdom of God
00:08:44.36\00:08:46.31
and they're looking
for me to advise them
00:08:46.32\00:08:48.97
on how they might do
that and to educate them
00:08:48.98\00:08:52.09
in these areas of law where
they like to make a difference.
00:08:52.10\00:08:54.21
Well, teachings make a huge
00:08:54.22\00:08:56.02
difference to
someone's life directly.
00:08:56.03\00:08:58.11
You see Mr. Gipson
or what's that other--
00:08:58.12\00:09:03.59
another teacher's
opus, what's that were weird?
00:09:03.60\00:09:06.95
But I know when I look back
00:09:06.96\00:09:08.03
on my experiences,
some of the teachers
00:09:08.04\00:09:09.83
I had that really
nice and support me.
00:09:09.84\00:09:12.01
And not just by what they
taught, but how they taught it.
00:09:12.02\00:09:15.57
And I'm sure with you.
00:09:15.58\00:09:17.20
You live in brave,
the vitality of these
00:09:17.21\00:09:21.82
moral and legal
principles that you provided.
00:09:21.83\00:09:23.80
It's--it's a joy because
since I continue to litigate
00:09:23.81\00:09:28.63
because of one of the
staffs from the National Right
00:09:28.64\00:09:30.15
to Work Legal
Defense Foundation,
00:09:30.19\00:09:31.85
I'm able to talk
with the students
00:09:31.86\00:09:33.57
and teach the
students about cases
00:09:33.58\00:09:35.34
that I've litigated in
the past and the foundation
00:09:35.35\00:09:38.49
is founding in
litigation right now.
00:09:38.50\00:09:41.90
And it's all, I'd like
say plus students at Regent
00:09:41.91\00:09:44.42
get to work with me on something
00:09:44.43\00:09:45.67
called The National
Right to work Practicum,
00:09:45.68\00:09:48.22
in which they're
able to be involved
00:09:48.23\00:09:50.38
in cases that
the foundation funds.
00:09:50.39\00:09:54.25
This is my fifth
year at the law school.
00:09:54.26\00:09:56.28
Every year that I've
been at the law school,
00:09:56.29\00:09:58.44
students of Regent had
been able to work with me
00:09:58.45\00:10:00.51
on cases before the
United States Supreme Court.
00:10:00.52\00:10:02.86
I was gonna ask
you, how many cases
00:10:02.87\00:10:04.43
have you dealt with
the Supreme Court directly?
00:10:04.44\00:10:07.71
I don't-- I don't know.
00:10:07.72\00:10:09.57
I will say this,
so there's honesty
00:10:09.58\00:10:12.74
and integrity
with your audience.
00:10:12.75\00:10:14.48
I've never stood before
00:10:14.49\00:10:15.89
the US Supreme
Court and argued the case.
00:10:15.90\00:10:18.22
But I've had many cases in which
00:10:18.23\00:10:20.50
I was either
working with the council
00:10:20.51\00:10:23.93
who argued before the court,
00:10:23.94\00:10:25.11
for example we
argued a case two weeks ago
00:10:25.12\00:10:27.53
before the US Supreme
Court or involved in trying
00:10:27.54\00:10:32.88
to keep a case from
going to the US Supreme Court.
00:10:32.89\00:10:35.35
I tell people,
Lincoln, that the reason
00:10:35.36\00:10:36.88
why I have not had
a long list of cases
00:10:36.89\00:10:39.82
before the United
States Supreme Court
00:10:39.83\00:10:41.68
is because with
God's blessing, I also win.
00:10:41.69\00:10:44.72
And so I'm not
going to the Supreme Court
00:10:44.73\00:10:46.82
asking them to review.
00:10:46.83\00:10:48.58
I'm there trying to
say, "Don't take this case.
00:10:48.59\00:10:51.61
It was correctly decided."
00:10:51.62\00:10:52.62
And people need
to know that things
00:10:52.63\00:10:54.13
only go to the
Supreme Court after the all--
00:10:54.14\00:10:56.85
well, how many steps
are there? This is the--
00:10:56.86\00:10:58.88
United States
Federal District Court,
00:10:58.89\00:11:00.61
United States Court of Appeals,
and then the US Supreme Court.
00:11:00.62\00:11:03.74
And the US Supreme Court accepts
00:11:03.75\00:11:05.60
less than 1% of the
cases that they come to them
00:11:05.61\00:11:08.92
which is actually a testament
00:11:08.93\00:11:10.46
to the litigation
program with the National Right
00:11:10.47\00:11:12.71
to Work Legal
Defense Foundation.
00:11:12.72\00:11:14.40
In the last four
years, we've had three cases
00:11:14.41\00:11:17.92
before the US Supreme Court.
00:11:17.93\00:11:19.45
It's a relatively
small litigation staff,
00:11:19.46\00:11:21.77
but we're
litigating cutting edge cases
00:11:21.78\00:11:24.89
and other lawyers in
the staff are losing.
00:11:24.90\00:11:28.02
But I'm helping them to they try
00:11:28.03\00:11:29.08
to win before the Supreme Court.
00:11:29.09\00:11:30.13
Well, if God is
with you or against you.
00:11:30.14\00:11:33.75
They tease about saying those
kind of things. That I'll hear.
00:11:33.76\00:11:35.57
I think you've given
a pretty good picture
00:11:35.58\00:11:38.15
for young Christians
or people of deep faith
00:11:38.16\00:11:43.00
going into the law as
the way to protect faith
00:11:43.01\00:11:46.98
and of course,
better society as the whole.
00:11:46.99\00:11:51.47
We started off by
talking about ways
00:11:51.48\00:11:52.98
that we can activate people
00:11:52.99\00:11:54.08
to become involved
in religious liberty.
00:11:54.09\00:11:55.90
Of course, this is one subset
to go into the law, isn't it?
00:11:55.91\00:11:58.42
Yes, yes. You know,
lawyers are really the ones
00:11:58.43\00:12:02.21
who've changed
agents in the sunset,
00:12:02.22\00:12:05.67
mostly legislatives are lawyers.
00:12:05.68\00:12:08.61
Of course, if
you're out there litigating
00:12:08.62\00:12:10.54
as a judge to change the law
00:12:10.55\00:12:13.16
or a lawyer at doing that,
00:12:13.17\00:12:14.93
either it's a
judge or it's the--
00:12:14.94\00:12:16.32
So the
legislatives are comedians
00:12:16.33\00:12:17.72
before I ask the question.
00:12:17.73\00:12:20.52
I mean quite literally.
00:12:20.53\00:12:22.41
But, yeah, I mean
that's always been the case
00:12:22.42\00:12:24.79
at least in fairly,
in the last few centuries
00:12:24.80\00:12:28.77
of western countries and
known in the matter of lawyers
00:12:28.78\00:12:31.98
end up in the higher
resolutions of government
00:12:31.99\00:12:35.24
I think because
it attracts them.
00:12:35.25\00:12:37.82
But it shouldn't be
00:12:37.83\00:12:40.04
prerequisite to the public life.
00:12:40.05\00:12:43.68
Oh, I don't know.
I think you gotta be
00:12:43.69\00:12:44.90
a Regent graduate
to be in public office.
00:12:44.91\00:12:47.32
But may be we
should broaden it a bit.
00:12:47.33\00:12:49.60
What would your suggestions
00:12:49.61\00:12:50.69
be for those
viewers who are watching it?
00:12:50.70\00:12:52.66
And obviously by
watching this program,
00:12:52.67\00:12:54.26
they're concerned
about religious freedom.
00:12:54.27\00:12:56.49
What can they do to
really to make a difference
00:12:56.50\00:12:59.16
other than donate
to liberty magazine?
00:12:59.17\00:13:02.29
Well said. You
know, we send them liberty
00:13:02.30\00:13:03.86
and I know you've
written for liberty a lot,
00:13:03.87\00:13:06.28
you're well aware of it
way before I was the editor.
00:13:06.29\00:13:09.97
But you know liberty magazine
goes to these thought leaders.
00:13:09.98\00:13:12.30
It goes to many of the lawyers.
00:13:12.31\00:13:14.05
So I remember maybe you
can correct me on the figures,
00:13:14.06\00:13:16.32
I've heard that there're
00:13:16.33\00:13:17.52
about 300,000
lawyers in the United States.
00:13:17.53\00:13:20.08
I don't know what the
number is. But we have.
00:13:20.09\00:13:22.09
We don't cover all of those,
00:13:22.10\00:13:23.20
but there're nearly
200,000 subscriptions
00:13:23.21\00:13:26.49
we send to
senators, congressmen,
00:13:26.50\00:13:30.43
lawyers, judges, and so on.
00:13:30.44\00:13:31.93
Public officials, mayors,
00:13:31.94\00:13:33.79
we want these people
to read the magazine.
00:13:33.80\00:13:36.05
We'll come back after the break
00:13:36.06\00:13:37.34
and continue
with this discussion
00:13:37.35\00:13:39.94
and may be let you
know some cues as to how
00:13:39.95\00:13:42.35
you can become
involved with religious liberty.
00:13:42.36\00:13:44.41