Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you up to date
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news, views and discussion
on religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the program
is Professor Bruce Cameron,
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who is the Reed Larson Professor
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at Regent University.
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Welcome to the program.
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Bruce and--I know from
other discussions with you that,
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that you've got a lot
of interesting insights.
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It's great to be here.
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Yeah, in
particularly, your specialty
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on religious
accommodation on labor unions.
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There're so many
directions that I can take this,
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but let me take it in the
direction of criticism of me.
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Editing Liberty
Magazine, you know,
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I try to choose
appropriate articles
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and a while
back I contacted you.
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I think I've made the
contact to you, but --
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You wrote an article for
Liberty on the shemozzle,
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for one of the better word,
not too long ago in Wisconsin,
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where the governor was tackling
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the government
employee labor unions
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and there was the
strange case of the legislators
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who have gone across
the state line to escape
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being first vote on the issue.
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Yes. You called me
up and the amazing thing
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is the weekend
before I have been thinking,
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laying in bed,
thinking I need to write article
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about this and
then you called me.
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Oh, so, reading of minds.
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And now I get a lot of
it, letters to the editor,
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not massive
amounts on any given day,
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but I get them consistently.
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But on that article I
am still getting letters.
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And many, many letters
and they've taken to be
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the greatly the task
and incredible reaction.
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Some of being
positive, but people that are
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pro-union, of
course, hate the article.
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Yes. So I, you know,
it was a wake up call
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to me that this is a hot issue.
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They didn't like what I
wrote. It was just too logical.
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Well, it was a very well
written article and of course
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it's consistent with the
cautions that we've always
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held out
through Liberty Magazine
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about people of
faith, Seventh-day Adventists
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particularly
joining trade unions
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that there is a problem.
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But there was something
different or extra going on
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with that case in
Wisconsin because these were
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government
employees who were unionized.
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What do you
think of that dynamic?
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Well, what's going on
and the reason why you have
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such intense dislike for
what's going on is because
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they are pulling
the special privileges
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that public
employee unions have.
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They are taking away political
power that I don't think
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they are entitled to and
the dragon is fighting back
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and when you see
what's going on in Wisconsin,
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when is the last time
that you had people mobbing
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the capital for days
and months and weeks,
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tearing stuff
apart, creating just
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a tremendous
amount of animosity.
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You know, it's not good
to walk down the streets
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of Madison and say, hey,
I'm in favor of governor--
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The Madison is a pretty quite
place, I've been there before.
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I had-- Not now.
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No, I had trouble
of imagining, you know,
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these new riots
that were taking place.
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And so what is the
complaint in Wisconsin
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for public employees?
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Governor Walker
signed a bill called Act 10.
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And Act 10 limits the
right of collective bargaining
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for public employees,
it limits it in this way.
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It says that public employees
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can only bargain
with regard to wages.
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They can't negotiate
wages over the cost of living.
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They cannot require
people who don't want
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to support the union to support.
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And government will no
longer collect their dues.
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They'll be just like every
other private organization.
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They have to
collect their own dues.
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Unions in fact, I'm one
of the council of record
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in one of these
cases in federal court,
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unions are crying foul.
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They are saying, the government
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is no longer
collecting our dues.
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Are-we're going
to lay out people?
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Our dues are gonna
drop by 50% or greater.
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Now what is that say to you?
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If you are a private
organization and your members
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love you so much
that unless the government
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takes their money
out of their paycheck,
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they're not gonna support you
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that gives you an
idea of what's going on.
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They are feeling vulnerable.
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Another thing they don't
like is they have to stand
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for election every year
and the majority of those
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who could vote have
to vote in their favor.
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So that means 50% of
the people who are represent
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by the union
have to say, you know,
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I'd really like to be
again represented by the union.
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What is so unusual about this?
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What's happened
historically is this.
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Wisconsin was one of
the first states to have
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public employ
collective bargaining
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and the meter in Wisconsin
over the years has been
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pointed toward
collective bargaining.
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What does
collective bargaining do?
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It means that the
state talks to the union
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and not to individual employees.
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And so now the state
of Wisconsin is moving
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the needle back to
talking to individual employees
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as opposed to the union.
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Well, as a defender of
individual employee rights,
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as an
individual employee myself,
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I like being able to
talk with my employer.
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I don't like a union
blocking me from that.
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Yeah, that's true.
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Well, my real objection,
the more I think about it,
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is not just the union
dynamic which we've discussed
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and we will
continue to talk about.
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But when you're
talking about a union
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within the
government, as a citizen,
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you vote people in or
out by some what they do
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or don't do and the
government should be responsive.
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But to have like a
set aside where they are
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negotiated agreements
and policies that through
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the normal voting
you can't change anymore,
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that seems to be
almost subverting within
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the whole process and
dynamic of government.
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See, this is one of
the reasons why the dragon,
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the dinosaur is
thrashing its tale
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so widely and so viciously.
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It's because public
employee labor unions
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are really a subversion
of the democratic process.
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Yes, I can see that in
governments, absolutely.
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Well, here's--consider this.
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If you had to look at the
local budget of a government
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and I say, you know, a school
board, city, whatever it is,
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about 60% to 70% of that budget
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is related to employee expenses.
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Now normally tax
payers would be determined
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how the employees are paid.
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But once you have a
public employee union in,
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who is the exclusive
bargaining representative,
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that discussion that decision
is taken out of the sunlight
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of the public and
behind closed doors
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where the
government has to negotiate
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in good faith with the union.
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So now instead of
this decision being made
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by the taxpayers, it is made
by the public employee unions
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and they are now
making the final decision.
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That is they are
making the decision on how
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60% to 70% of the
local taxes are spent.
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And that it seems to me
is a subversion of them.
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It locks things in
too, not part of the dynamic
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of governance anymore.
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Well see, well that's
it, because someone can say,
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well look, you can
vote out the politicians
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and change their contract.
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And they may still
bound by this agreement.
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That's right, they
are bound by the agreement
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for three years
generally, and so you can't just
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toss out those politicians,
but even a worse than that.
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What is the agreement often say?
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The agreement says
that every employee
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in the bargaining unit has
to join the union or pay fees.
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Those fees are then
used in part to help re-elect
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their friendly politician
who supports the union
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and you start this
cycle where the taxpayer
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is truly pushed to the outside.
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I mean there's too
much of that going on
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I think in-- in United States.
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We've talked
about United States,
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particularly with
lobbyists and special interests,
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and the super
pacts and all the rest.
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But this union dynamic is worse.
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It's somewhere
as more of the same,
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but it's even
more outrageous because
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it can lock things
in within the system.
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The conflict of interest,
a subversion of the will
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of the people, I
think almost automatically.
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And another eye
opener is what percentage
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of the union's dues
are used for politics.
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We've talked before about the,
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the National
Education Association.
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It's the largest labor
union in the United States.
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Their own voluntary
statement is that less than 50%
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of their dues are used for
collective bargaining cause.
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The over 50% are
used for political
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and ideological activities.
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And so if you are an
employee and you're told
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you have to either join
the union or pay the fees,
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you are now required to pay
a substantial amount of money
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to a union that
likely has a different
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political agenda than you have.
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So if you were the recipient
of such government largess,
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largess that is, that
employees who disagree
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with you have to
support your politics.
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That you have this
inside track in determining
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public policy that,
that you have the government
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collecting your
dues, you wouldn't want
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to give up those rights either.
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You might be out in the street.
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You might be
tearing something up.
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Now--I know nothing on this.
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I read a lot, but I
don't ever remember reading,
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what is the proportion
of government employees
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that's unionized
government employees?
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Over all about 44%.
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So it's much higher,
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much higher than
general work force.
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Oh, see this is the, this
is the outrage about this.
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And this is
something very significant
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about organized labor.
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In the private sector,
they represent less than 7% of--
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That's what the figure
I remember. Seven percent.
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Right, right, right.
Well, it's below seven now.
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The latest DOL figures
and I just looked at these
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as less than 7%,
in the public sector
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it depends on the
sector, but overall it's about
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40% to 44 % in the
teaching profession.
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I believe it's-DOL does
not release figures on this,
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but my belief is
it's 75% or more.
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So where do we have
organized labor fighting?
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It's not against
the bad old employer.
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Most employees have
rejected the labor union
00:10:41.84\00:10:44.18
with regard to their private
sector profit making employer,
00:10:44.19\00:10:47.14
instead they want a
labor union to fight
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against you and
me, the tax payers.
00:10:49.86\00:10:52.50
Yeah. No, just this
dynamic of discussing with you
00:10:52.51\00:10:55.54
has changed my view of
it because I've always seen
00:10:55.55\00:10:59.31
in the overall there
is no question that unions
00:10:59.32\00:11:02.10
here are very weak compared
to say England or Australia.
00:11:02.11\00:11:05.24
In Australia,
practically everybody
00:11:05.25\00:11:07.02
over those, are unionized.
00:11:07.03\00:11:08.47
But the current battle
may reflect that same dynamic
00:11:08.48\00:11:13.43
when its government because
if they've got a lock hold
00:11:13.44\00:11:15.47
on the government employees
and for better or worse
00:11:15.48\00:11:18.99
government is the
largest growing sector
00:11:19.00\00:11:21.85
of the United States.
00:11:21.86\00:11:22.90
Well, that's right and--
00:11:22.91\00:11:24.67
So, so for them to
have such a control on it,
00:11:24.68\00:11:26.73
it is a battle royal
for control even though
00:11:26.74\00:11:30.53
overall 7% may not signal that.
00:11:30.54\00:11:33.59
And when you say
weak, you're right weak
00:11:33.60\00:11:36.31
in terms of the number of
employees that they represent.
00:11:36.32\00:11:40.27
But with regard to
political influence,
00:11:40.28\00:11:43.24
I don't think that
they are any weaker.
00:11:43.25\00:11:45.35
I think they have tilted their
expenditures toward politics
00:11:45.36\00:11:49.54
and certainly
with a great increase
00:11:49.55\00:11:51.80
in public employee unions.
00:11:51.81\00:11:53.47
There's a huge focus
on political control.
00:11:53.48\00:11:56.65
Well, they haven't yet
done what was done in Australia.
00:11:56.66\00:11:59.07
You probably know,
our viewers might not.
00:11:59.08\00:12:01.93
In Australia, the
head of the labor unions,
00:12:01.94\00:12:05.32
Bob Hawke, eventually
became prime minister.
00:12:05.33\00:12:08.07
So does it come
more direct on that.
00:12:08.08\00:12:09.94
Because their man
running the country for a while.
00:12:11.26\00:12:14.29
To my knowledge we don't
have any AFL-CIO presidents,
00:12:14.30\00:12:18.23
who are president
of the United States.
00:12:18.24\00:12:20.14
But they do
influence, assert the influence.
00:12:20.15\00:12:23.27
For example, I believe that
in the next day or so Indiana
00:12:23.28\00:12:27.47
will become the
23rd right-to-work state.
00:12:27.48\00:12:30.31
It's passed the
senate in Indiana,
00:12:30.32\00:12:32.22
it's passed the
house in Indiana.
00:12:32.23\00:12:33.98
What are they threatening?
00:12:33.99\00:12:35.53
They are threatening to
interfere with the SuperBowl.
00:12:35.54\00:12:38.18
Incredible, incredible.
00:12:38.19\00:12:39.28
That's really touching
America-- That's right.
00:12:39.29\00:12:42.29
We'll be back after the
break to further discuss
00:12:42.30\00:12:44.88
union's conscience
and the government,
00:12:44.89\00:12:48.50
which is at the middle
of the pie at the moment.
00:12:48.51\00:12:50.76
Middle of the sandwich.
00:12:50.77\00:12:52.25