Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bruce N. Cameron
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000167B
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00:03 Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break with Professor Bruce Cameron 00:07 we were really getting into some of 00:10 the nuts and bolts Bruce of the labor union issue 00:15 as far as religious accommodation 00:17 and really whether the dynamic is a correct one, 00:21 whether it's really inhibiting individual choice 00:25 particularly freedom of conscience. 00:28 I need to--I'll throw you something 00:29 up to you just to see you. 00:31 Give me harder time. 00:33 You know, I've--absolutely the Seventh-day Adventist 00:36 believe that there's a problem with unions, 00:40 requiring membership and so on 00:42 and some of the things they stand for, 00:43 and I've no question extrapolating 00:46 from where we're now to a moment of great crisis. 00:49 I could see unions working in a bad way 00:53 to inhibit someone standing for their faith. 00:57 But I've noticed on a number of occasions in cases 01:01 in the last few years where a Seventh-day Adventist 01:04 or someone else's faith is wanting 01:05 in religious accommodation 01:07 and the employers-yeah, employer is objecting 01:13 that there's been cases where 01:15 the union is sympathetic to their case 01:17 and argues on their behalf too. 01:20 They're not a union member. 01:21 Do you think that-- well I put it another way. 01:25 Are the labor unions always the enemy 01:27 to freedom of conscience in the work place? 01:31 Are they sometimes that they could 01:37 at least do some little good. 01:39 Well, if a labor union is helping a person 01:43 obtain a religious accommodation praise them, 01:47 blessings on them. 01:50 I've a number of union lawyers throughout the country 01:54 who cooperate with me on religious accommodation issues. 01:57 I mentioned the NEA before. 01:59 The NEA has official, and they had-- 02:02 its not written down anywhere, 02:04 but they made a decision about15 years ago 02:09 that they would not fright me on religious accommodation 02:13 that the NEA itself would cooperate with me 02:15 on the basic accommodation issue. 02:17 We're sitting right here in the State of Illinois, 02:20 the General Council of the NEAFLA in Illinois 02:24 has been extraordinarily cooperative in working out 02:28 religious accommodation issues with me 02:32 and will routinely accommodate teachers 02:36 public school teachers represented by the NEA 02:38 who have religious objections. 02:40 But in general unions are poison 02:43 for religious accommodation and here is the reason why. 02:46 There's a U.S. Supreme Court case 02:47 called TWA versus Hardison. 02:49 Yes, I know that good. 02:50 And Hardison, Title VII says, 02:54 that an employer and union have to attempt 02:57 to accommodate the religious beliefs of an employee 02:59 unless to do so it create undo hardship, all right. 03:02 Well, the defendant in that case was Trans World Airlines. 03:05 What would be a hardship for a multi-million dollar company? 03:10 Trans World is not as big now, 03:12 but then they were the number two airline in the country. 03:14 Would it be a loss of one million, two million? 03:17 You know, if that be a hardship the statute says 03:20 undo hardship and so you think what 03:22 we're talking about more than a million dollars. 03:26 In our day, it's come down to million dollars. 03:28 Well, the Supreme Court lacking a dictionary 03:31 in their building said undo hardship, 03:33 oh that means having to pay overtime, 03:37 it's just an outrage in my view with regard 03:40 to the statutory language. 03:43 Undo hardship means almost nothing 03:45 but undue hardship is always found whether is a breach 03:51 of a collective bargaining agreement. 03:53 That's why if a Christian who seeks an accommodation 03:57 of their faith is working into 03:58 a collective bargaining agreement, 04:00 if that agreement is contrary to the accommodation 04:03 that relieves the employer of any accommodation. 04:06 So if a person who is a Christian is very concerned 04:10 about faith should avoid working in a workplace 04:13 where there is a union, 04:15 because the collective bargaining agreement 04:16 is an absolute barrier to accommodation. 04:20 The law is that you cannot enforce the union 04:23 or the employer to violate 04:24 the collective bargaining agreement. 04:25 It's an interesting point I've never thought, 04:27 I mean the way you explain it is very plain. 04:33 The point I was going to make though 04:34 just a philosophical one in not only a democracy 04:38 but this-- the United States 04:42 where there is a culture of respect for religious faith, 04:47 it's not quite a religious republic, Christian Republic, 04:52 its not even quite Protestant anymore, 04:54 but it certainly overwhelmingly 04:57 a Christian oriented society. 05:02 It would seem that a union should have 05:04 an innate sympathy for the-- that stand of its members. 05:10 Now, the knock against unionism in unless really, 05:13 I'll get myself into trouble, 05:15 because every time someone publicly ventures this, 05:17 but I know in Nazi-Germany, the unions were picked up 05:20 because of the socialist leanings. 05:23 And I know in Australia where I'm from, 05:25 unions have an inordinate affinity 05:29 to socialist viewpoints and antagonism to religion. 05:35 There's reasons that they're when they're like that 05:39 they treated badly. 05:40 But wouldn't you think that unionism in United States 05:44 regardless of collective bargaining 05:46 some would set have inculcated within this respect 05:50 and readiness to uphold its members Christians 05:55 and faith particulars. No. 06:00 I know it's prosily, but-- But here's the-- 06:03 That's there's reasonable expectation of this society 06:06 not just the government 06:07 or some organization challenging the unions. 06:12 The reason why I can so flatly say 06:14 no is the strength of organized labor is in the collective, 06:18 not in the individual. 06:19 You're talking about individual rights. 06:21 The entire philosophy of organized labor 06:24 is antithetical to individual rights 06:26 and when you mentioned to me the union 06:30 representing the Adventists who is not a member 06:33 is sounded as if you thought union 06:35 was doing the Adventists a favor. 06:38 No I think its in concurrence of aims 06:41 that they wanted to bring the employer into line 06:45 and say this suited therein. 06:46 Well, it's more than that. 06:48 Unions have an obligation to represent nonmembers. 06:52 Why is that? 06:53 It's because before the union comes to town. 06:56 Every employ can go to their employer and say 06:59 this is the deal I'd like to workout for wages, hours, 07:02 conditions of employment. 07:03 The employer can say no the employee can walk-off 07:05 and so I'm gonna work some place else 07:07 where you've complete freedom to do that. 07:10 Once the union comes to town 07:11 and because the exclusive bargaining representative 07:14 it ousts everyone from being able to represent themselves 07:19 and the union alone speaks for them. 07:22 The law then imposes upon unions 07:24 a duty of fair representation to represent every member 07:27 of the bargaining unit fairly 07:29 because they've disabled them from representing themselves. 07:32 The flip side, I never thought of it. 07:33 Oh, this is a legal requirement. Yeah. 07:35 In every collective bargaining context, 07:38 so that why I say, 07:39 it's not out of the generosity of their heart 07:41 that they are doing this. 07:42 They're doing it because they've a legal obligation 07:44 because they disabled this person 07:46 from representing themselves. Yes. 07:50 Well tell me some more stories of simple cases. 07:53 I tell you a great story. 07:55 You know, we were talking about 07:56 the right of religious accommodation 07:58 and how Seventh-day Adventist have this concern 08:01 because we're teaching at the church 08:02 and I mentioned that my 35 plus years of litigating 08:07 funded by the National Network Foundation 08:10 has broadened the religious accommodation 08:12 to all sincere religious believers. 08:15 And I'll tell you a story that shows the necessity for that. 08:17 A dear lady in Ohio 08:21 applied for a religious accommodation. 08:23 She was a Catholic, she wasn't an Adventist, 08:25 she was denied. 08:27 She called the General Counsel 08:29 of the Ohio Education Association and said, 08:33 I need an accommodation I've been denied 08:36 and the General Counsel of the OEA 08:38 and there's some dispute from the General Counsel's view 08:41 about what was said. 08:42 But my client says that the General Counsel 08:44 told her she had to stop being a Catholic 08:47 and started being I guess Seventh-day Adventist 08:49 or a member of a church that had these teachings. 08:52 And so, this teacher had been teaching for 20 some years. 08:57 She was a devout Catholic. She loved her church. 09:00 She wanted to obey God. And she loved her job. 09:03 She didn't want to retire. 09:05 And she was sitting there 09:06 having to choose between the two. 09:08 It turned out that I was working on another case in Ohio 09:12 where the United States government 09:14 had sued the State of Ohio 09:17 and the EEOC had sued the union. 09:19 And a bunch of papers would come out of this 09:21 and one of the papers was a paper 09:22 that had this lady's name on it and her problem. 09:26 I'm always very reluctant to just call people up, 09:29 I mean start in proper but I'm reluctant to do this, 09:33 but I thought I was-- I thought that I should call her. 09:38 I was just being impressed to call her up. 09:40 I called her up and I called her up 09:42 right after she hung up the phone 09:44 with this Union General Counsel. 09:46 And I said I've got your name here, 09:48 I've got your case, it came into discovery, 09:51 would you like to have me help you. 09:53 And I took her case and we won 09:56 and she got accommodated 09:58 and she didn't have to give up her faith. 10:00 You know this is a good point 10:02 that we need to remind our viewers, 10:03 we're arguing for religious freedom. 10:05 For everyone. As Seventh-day Adventists. 10:07 Right. Just to get it for our group 10:10 is a pyrrhic victory. Right. 10:12 Religious liberty, it's being shown historically 10:14 and I think morally from the biblical point of view. 10:16 Everybody should have, if it's just for you 10:19 that's not freedom, that's special treatment for me. 10:22 That's the violation of church, state separation, 10:26 if one church is the favorite church. 10:28 So you know I definitely on 10:31 more than on the right track. 10:33 You're doing a wonderful work in defending people 10:36 in the context of union threat. 10:41 I wouldn't like to characterize 10:42 that we are opposed to union per se, 10:45 but we're opposed to the dynamic 10:47 that union represent to people of faith in the workplace. 10:49 Right, that's right and the great joy of my life 10:53 has been to help these employees who feel 10:56 that they're faced with the choice between faith and family. 11:00 And I'm able to comment 11:02 and accommodate get them accommodate 11:04 and the great blessing Lincoln is this. 11:06 All the years I've been doing this 11:08 an employee who comes to me and stays with me, 11:11 gets accommodated. 11:12 One hundred percent I've never had anyone 11:14 who is not accommodated. 11:17 Wonderful work that you're doing. 11:18 Oh, it's a blessing, 11:19 its God's blessing on my life and so, 11:23 you know, if there is anyone who is listening 11:25 and says, I've got this problem, 11:27 I've got this concern. 11:28 There is a way out, you cannot be forced 11:31 to choose between your conscience 11:33 and support of a labor union. 11:37 It's always problematic for a Christian 11:39 it seems to me in thinking about union membership, 11:44 but not only it might be union restrict your direct practice 11:49 of your Christian or religious faith. 11:51 But the union may on its own--the advancing 11:55 and standing and recommending policies 11:58 that are direct contradiction. 12:00 For example, the teachers union 12:02 which should be dedicated to pursuing in public policy 12:08 what its members do in their employment. 12:10 Training and up building 12:12 and preparing another generation for service. 12:16 It's very problematic that same union 12:19 is actually advancing pro-abortion 12:23 and other policies that would actually 12:25 restrict the very constituency that they have to teach. 12:31 The Christian I believe 12:33 cannot join with such an organization. 12:36 The Christian needs to be consistent, 12:39 morally consistent with what they're called to do. 12:43 The Christian I believe 12:46 and the Seventh-day Adventist church 12:47 is long held needs to examine very closely, 12:50 how they'll associate with the trade union. 12:54 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17