Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
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Before the break with
Professor Bruce Cameron
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we were really
getting into some of
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the nuts and bolts
Bruce of the labor union issue
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as far as
religious accommodation
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and really whether the
dynamic is a correct one,
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whether it's really
inhibiting individual choice
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particularly
freedom of conscience.
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I need to--I'll
throw you something
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up to you just to see you.
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Give me harder time.
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You know, I've--absolutely
the Seventh-day Adventist
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believe that there's
a problem with unions,
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requiring membership and so on
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and some of the
things they stand for,
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and I've no
question extrapolating
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from where we're now to
a moment of great crisis.
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I could see unions
working in a bad way
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to inhibit someone
standing for their faith.
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But I've noticed on a
number of occasions in cases
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in the last few years
where a Seventh-day Adventist
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or someone
else's faith is wanting
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in religious accommodation
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and the employers-yeah,
employer is objecting
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that there's been cases where
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the union is
sympathetic to their case
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and argues on their behalf too.
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They're not a union member.
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Do you think that--
well I put it another way.
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Are the labor
unions always the enemy
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to freedom of
conscience in the work place?
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Are they
sometimes that they could
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at least do some little good.
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Well, if a labor
union is helping a person
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obtain a religious
accommodation praise them,
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blessings on them.
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I've a number of union
lawyers throughout the country
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who cooperate with me on
religious accommodation issues.
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I mentioned the NEA before.
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The NEA has
official, and they had--
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its not written down anywhere,
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but they made a
decision about15 years ago
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that they would not fright
me on religious accommodation
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that the NEA itself
would cooperate with me
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on the basic
accommodation issue.
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We're sitting right here
in the State of Illinois,
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the General Council
of the NEAFLA in Illinois
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has been extraordinarily
cooperative in working out
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religious
accommodation issues with me
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and will routinely
accommodate teachers
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public school
teachers represented by the NEA
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who have religious objections.
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But in general unions are poison
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for religious accommodation
and here is the reason why.
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There's a U.S.
Supreme Court case
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called TWA versus Hardison.
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Yes, I know that good.
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And Hardison, Title VII says,
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that an employer and
union have to attempt
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to accommodate the
religious beliefs of an employee
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unless to do so it
create undo hardship, all right.
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Well, the defendant in that
case was Trans World Airlines.
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What would be a hardship for
a multi-million dollar company?
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Trans World is not as big now,
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but then they were the number
two airline in the country.
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Would it be a loss of
one million, two million?
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You know, if that be a
hardship the statute says
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undo hardship
and so you think what
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we're talking about
more than a million dollars.
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In our day, it's come
down to million dollars.
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Well, the Supreme
Court lacking a dictionary
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in their building
said undo hardship,
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oh that means
having to pay overtime,
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it's just an outrage
in my view with regard
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to the statutory language.
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Undo hardship
means almost nothing
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but undue hardship is
always found whether is a breach
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of a collective
bargaining agreement.
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That's why if a Christian
who seeks an accommodation
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of their faith is working into
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a collective
bargaining agreement,
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if that agreement is
contrary to the accommodation
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that relieves the
employer of any accommodation.
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So if a person who is a
Christian is very concerned
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about faith should
avoid working in a workplace
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where there is a union,
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because the
collective bargaining agreement
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is an absolute
barrier to accommodation.
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The law is that you
cannot enforce the union
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or the employer to violate
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the collective
bargaining agreement.
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It's an interesting
point I've never thought,
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I mean the way you
explain it is very plain.
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The point I was
going to make though
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just a philosophical
one in not only a democracy
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but this-- the United States
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where there is a culture of
respect for religious faith,
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it's not quite a religious
republic, Christian Republic,
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its not even quite
Protestant anymore,
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but it certainly overwhelmingly
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a Christian oriented society.
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It would seem that
a union should have
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an innate sympathy for
the-- that stand of its members.
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Now, the knock against
unionism in unless really,
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I'll get myself into trouble,
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because every time
someone publicly ventures this,
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but I know in Nazi-Germany,
the unions were picked up
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because of the
socialist leanings.
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And I know in
Australia where I'm from,
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unions have an
inordinate affinity
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to socialist viewpoints
and antagonism to religion.
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There's reasons that
they're when they're like that
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they treated badly.
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But wouldn't you think
that unionism in United States
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regardless of
collective bargaining
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some would set have
inculcated within this respect
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and readiness to
uphold its members Christians
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and faith particulars. No.
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I know it's prosily,
but-- But here's the--
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That's there's reasonable
expectation of this society
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not just the government
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or some organization
challenging the unions.
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The reason why I
can so flatly say
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no is the strength of organized
labor is in the collective,
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not in the individual.
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You're talking
about individual rights.
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The entire
philosophy of organized labor
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is antithetical
to individual rights
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and when you
mentioned to me the union
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representing the
Adventists who is not a member
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is sounded as if
you thought union
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was doing the
Adventists a favor.
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No I think its in
concurrence of aims
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that they wanted to
bring the employer into line
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and say this suited therein.
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Well, it's more than that.
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Unions have an obligation
to represent nonmembers.
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Why is that?
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It's because before
the union comes to town.
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Every employ can go
to their employer and say
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this is the deal I'd like
to workout for wages, hours,
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conditions of employment.
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The employer can say no
the employee can walk-off
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and so I'm gonna
work some place else
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where you've
complete freedom to do that.
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Once the union comes to town
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and because the exclusive
bargaining representative
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it ousts everyone from being
able to represent themselves
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and the union
alone speaks for them.
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The law then imposes upon unions
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a duty of fair representation
to represent every member
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of the bargaining unit fairly
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because they've disabled them
from representing themselves.
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The flip side, I
never thought of it.
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Oh, this is a
legal requirement. Yeah.
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In every
collective bargaining context,
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so that why I say,
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it's not out of the
generosity of their heart
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that they are doing this.
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They're doing it because
they've a legal obligation
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because they
disabled this person
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from
representing themselves. Yes.
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Well tell me some more
stories of simple cases.
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I tell you a great story.
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You know, we were talking about
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the right of
religious accommodation
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and how Seventh-day
Adventist have this concern
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because we're
teaching at the church
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and I mentioned that my
35 plus years of litigating
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funded by the
National Network Foundation
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has broadened the
religious accommodation
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to all sincere
religious believers.
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And I'll tell you a story that
shows the necessity for that.
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A dear lady in Ohio
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applied for a
religious accommodation.
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She was a Catholic,
she wasn't an Adventist,
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she was denied.
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She called the General Counsel
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of the Ohio
Education Association and said,
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I need an
accommodation I've been denied
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and the General
Counsel of the OEA
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and there's some dispute
from the General Counsel's view
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about what was said.
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But my client says
that the General Counsel
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told her she had to
stop being a Catholic
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and started being I
guess Seventh-day Adventist
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or a member of a church
that had these teachings.
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And so, this teacher had
been teaching for 20 some years.
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She was a devout
Catholic. She loved her church.
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She wanted to obey
God. And she loved her job.
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She didn't want to retire.
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And she was sitting there
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having to
choose between the two.
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It turned out that I was
working on another case in Ohio
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where the United
States government
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had sued the State of Ohio
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and the EEOC had sued the union.
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And a bunch of papers
would come out of this
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and one of the
papers was a paper
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that had this lady's
name on it and her problem.
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I'm always very reluctant
to just call people up,
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I mean start in proper
but I'm reluctant to do this,
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but I thought I was-- I
thought that I should call her.
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I was just being
impressed to call her up.
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I called her up
and I called her up
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right after she
hung up the phone
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with this Union General Counsel.
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And I said I've
got your name here,
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I've got your case,
it came into discovery,
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would you like
to have me help you.
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And I took her case and we won
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and she got accommodated
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and she didn't have
to give up her faith.
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You know this is a good point
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that we need to
remind our viewers,
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we're arguing for
religious freedom.
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For everyone. As
Seventh-day Adventists.
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Right. Just to
get it for our group
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is a pyrrhic victory. Right.
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Religious liberty, it's
being shown historically
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and I think morally from
the biblical point of view.
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Everybody should
have, if it's just for you
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that's not freedom,
that's special treatment for me.
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That's the violation of
church, state separation,
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if one church is
the favorite church.
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So you know I definitely on
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more than on the right track.
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You're doing a wonderful
work in defending people
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in the context of union threat.
00:10:36.66\00:10:41.27
I wouldn't like to characterize
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that we are
opposed to union per se,
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but we're opposed to the dynamic
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that union represent to people
of faith in the workplace.
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Right, that's right and
the great joy of my life
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has been to help
these employees who feel
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that they're faced with the
choice between faith and family.
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And I'm able to comment
00:11:00.78\00:11:02.18
and accommodate
get them accommodate
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and the great
blessing Lincoln is this.
00:11:04.51\00:11:06.86
All the years
I've been doing this
00:11:06.87\00:11:08.59
an employee who comes
to me and stays with me,
00:11:08.60\00:11:11.34
gets accommodated.
00:11:11.35\00:11:12.51
One hundred percent
I've never had anyone
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who is not accommodated.
00:11:14.74\00:11:17.21
Wonderful work
that you're doing.
00:11:17.22\00:11:18.21
Oh, it's a blessing,
00:11:18.22\00:11:19.40
its God's
blessing on my life and so,
00:11:19.41\00:11:23.25
you know, if there is
anyone who is listening
00:11:23.26\00:11:25.29
and says, I've got this problem,
00:11:25.30\00:11:27.39
I've got this concern.
00:11:27.40\00:11:28.92
There is a way out,
you cannot be forced
00:11:28.93\00:11:31.53
to choose
between your conscience
00:11:31.54\00:11:33.21
and support of a labor union.
00:11:33.22\00:11:34.64
It's always
problematic for a Christian
00:11:37.79\00:11:39.93
it seems to me in
thinking about union membership,
00:11:39.94\00:11:44.15
but not only it might be union
restrict your direct practice
00:11:44.16\00:11:49.47
of your Christian
or religious faith.
00:11:49.48\00:11:51.87
But the union may on
its own--the advancing
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and standing and
recommending policies
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that are direct contradiction.
00:11:58.72\00:12:00.68
For example, the teachers union
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which should be dedicated
to pursuing in public policy
00:12:02.93\00:12:08.38
what its members do
in their employment.
00:12:08.39\00:12:10.89
Training and up building
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and preparing another
generation for service.
00:12:12.92\00:12:16.95
It's very
problematic that same union
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is actually
advancing pro-abortion
00:12:19.80\00:12:23.17
and other policies
that would actually
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restrict the very constituency
that they have to teach.
00:12:25.59\00:12:31.68
The Christian I believe
00:12:31.69\00:12:33.55
cannot join with
such an organization.
00:12:33.56\00:12:36.73
The Christian
needs to be consistent,
00:12:36.74\00:12:39.06
morally consistent with
what they're called to do.
00:12:39.07\00:12:43.74
The Christian I believe
00:12:43.75\00:12:46.10
and the
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:12:46.11\00:12:47.32
is long held needs
to examine very closely,
00:12:47.33\00:12:50.86
how they'll
associate with the trade union.
00:12:50.87\00:12:53.14
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:54.22\00:12:56.63