Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bruce N. Cameron
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000167A
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00:22 Welcome, to the Liberty Insider.
00:25 This is the program that brings you discussion, news, 00:28 Views, and insights into religious liberty events 00:31 and concerns in the United States 00:33 and around the world. 00:34 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:38 and my guest on the program is Professor Bruce Cameron, 00:41 who is the Reed Larson 00:42 Professor of Law the at Regent University. 00:46 Welcome again, Bruce. It's a pleasure 00:48 to have on you on this program. 00:49 You and I've some contact over the years 00:51 but it's--this is the first occasion 00:53 that I've had you as a guest. 00:55 We do, we're gonna do a few programs. 00:57 It's a delight to be here. 00:58 And you're very special to me because you're-- 01:02 anybody I've contacted 01:03 when I've been in the Liberty editorship, 01:06 you're the only one that's really an expert 01:09 in labor unions and religious accommodation. 01:12 And I know, you could talk and lecture--as teacher. 01:15 I teach a class on this-- 01:16 Yes, like Nuke Gingrich running in the-- 01:19 Uh, don't compare me to Newt. 01:21 No, but I can tell he's got a bit of an unfair advantage 01:24 that he's used to talking and holding an audience. 01:28 But it's a gift I think 01:29 and you're very good at presenting in your case. 01:31 Let's talk a little bit, 01:34 you know, this may not be the only program we'll do on it. 01:36 But let's talk a bit of more about, 01:41 how do we relate to unions? 01:42 Especially Seventh-day Adventists, 01:43 especially Christians and those that have principles, 01:46 you know, why is there a problem 01:49 joining in labor union and what is the dynamic 01:52 that's so problematic. 01:54 Well, the historical concern 01:56 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church 01:57 and its members has been that labor unions 02:00 approach the employer in a way 02:03 that's inconsistent with the teaching of the Bible. 02:06 For example, in the Ephesians' 6, we read that, 02:09 "We should work for our employers 02:11 if we're working for God." 02:13 The idea of striking against God, 02:15 the idea of blackjacking God, you know, 02:18 to get him to give more benefits. 02:19 Was it Jesus that told that parable about 02:21 the workmen hiring people at different points 02:23 during the day and they come to him 02:25 and try and cry foul and he says, 02:27 you know, this was our agreement-- 02:28 you know, why you're challenging me basically? 02:32 Precisely our labor unions believe 02:33 everyone should be paid the same amount 02:35 who is in the same job classification 02:37 contrary to that payable. But even more contrary is-- 02:40 you remember the story of the soldiers 02:42 who came to John, the Baptists, and said to him, 02:45 "What should we do?" 02:46 That's in Luke 3. And John, the Baptists said to them, 02:50 "Don't extort money and be content with your wages." 02:54 I think that is a job description 02:56 for organized labor. 02:58 Extorting money and being 03:01 and spreading discontent for wages. 03:03 And so historically Seventh-day Adventists 03:06 have said, this-- Now can I--Sure. 03:10 Interject, also-- Also-- 03:12 In Revelation, it says, 03:14 as a characteristic of the-in times 03:16 that the employer has held back wages by fraud. 03:21 I mean if I was-- no I'm not trying to undercut 03:24 your point but I think, what the Bible argues 03:29 for is an ideal social contract. 03:32 And employer that is charitable and honest 03:35 toward his employee and employee that gives 03:38 appropriate work doesn't just take the money 03:40 and so it has to work on two-sides. 03:44 It is James that says, 'Are you unfair to your servant'? 03:48 Are you unfair to your slave? 03:50 We have a common master that is you and the slave. 03:52 You mistreat that servant and you're accountable to me. 03:56 So, yes, the Bible has statements 03:59 about how employees. 04:01 He calls them slaves but I think it's fair 04:02 to apply to employees that 04:05 how they should treat their employer 04:06 and employer should treat employees. 04:08 Now, the fact that an employer may not 04:11 treat an employee properly. 04:12 Doesn't let an employee Off the hook 04:14 of obeying God or vice versa. 04:17 So, the good news you'll be pleased to know is, 04:21 I don't represent labor unions, 04:23 I don't represent employers, I only represent employees. 04:28 So there can be bad employers 04:30 and it's not going to cause heartburn.. 04:31 And since we're talking about 04:33 Seventh-day Adventist position, 04:34 Ellen White, I believe, under inspiration 04:37 and certainly in accordance with the thinking 04:40 of the early Adventist was quite definitive. 04:43 I wish I had the statement. 04:44 I thought I was pulling it this morning from my papers 04:46 but she says something that no Seventh-day Adventist 04:49 is expecting the return of Christ could ever join-- 04:53 could join any trade union that ever has been 04:56 or will be. So that's pretty definitive. 05:00 Well, it seems to me that the approach 05:02 of organized labor is contrary to the gospel. 05:04 If you truly are a person who says-- 05:06 the essence of the gospel is this, 05:08 God gave his life for us. 05:11 And as a follower it's my obligation to 05:13 give up my life for others. 05:15 You cannot have that philosophy in life 05:17 and say to an employer. 05:19 I'm going to harm your work, 05:21 your business if you don't give me more. 05:24 You cannot say to an employer 05:25 as unions can often do, I'll breakup your stuff. 05:28 You know, I'll burn up and destroy your-equipment. 05:30 That's where the unions, I think have gone beyond civil law 05:34 as a proprietary not just moral Christian morality. 05:37 Right so you know, 05:39 a Christian should naturally say wait a minute. 05:41 Wait a minute. Is this an association 05:44 that I should be a part of? 05:45 Am I being unequally yoked with unbelievers by the union? 05:48 And going to be forced the dynamic of requiring 05:52 under some serious penalty 05:55 perhaps not even being able to work. 05:56 That's an amazing compulsion. Isn't that? 05:58 Well, see that's exactly right. 06:01 There is another aspect to this too 06:03 of the employees I represent. 06:05 There are number of labor unions in the United States 06:08 including the largest labor union 06:10 which is The National Education Association. 06:12 There are active lobbyists on some of the most 06:16 important social issues of the day. 06:18 For example, the National Education Association 06:20 is a pro-abortion lobby. 06:22 It is a pro-homosexual marriage lobby. 06:25 And so Christians who take those issues 06:29 very seriously say, wait a minute, 06:31 do I want to be a part of an organization that's doing that? 06:33 It's not just how do I treat my employer? 06:36 You say well do I want to be part of a movement 06:39 and have my money and my influence 06:41 used to promote those things? So, that's-- 06:44 Even as you say that it just occurred to me 06:46 I've never heard how those unions 06:48 adopted those position. Was it done 06:50 in anything close to a democratic process 06:53 or to just union organizers sort of have an affinity 06:56 there and this is what they do. 06:58 Well the-- Is it reflecting the true 07:01 majority opinion of their members? 07:03 I've--I'm sure if the NEA lawyer where listening to this 07:08 he'd said Bruce Cameron you're not entitled to 07:10 the comment on the democracy and the NEA. 07:13 The NEA claims it's a huge democratic institution, 07:17 but I will tell you this, my experience is that 07:21 it's the NEA activists at the local 07:23 that are involved in state activities 07:25 because the rest of the teachers. 07:27 Just want to do their job help their students, 07:29 go home and be with their family. 07:31 They're not interested in this other stuff. 07:33 So, you get a core of activists that elect 07:35 another core of activist and you get 07:38 the people at the top who are these hard left activists 07:42 Lincoln, here's the proof of this. 07:45 Whatever, an NEA lawyer might say 07:47 about my argument here's the proof of it. 07:49 What does every trade union try to do? 07:52 They try to protect their work product. 07:55 The long shore men don't want ships 07:58 to come into the non-union ports. 07:59 They want them to come into the ports 08:01 where they have agreements. 08:02 The UAW doesn't want Japanese import cars. 08:05 They want to keep them out. 08:07 They want to protect their work product. 08:10 What's the work product for a teacher? 08:12 Its students. What does abortion do 08:15 to the number of students in a school? 08:17 Oh, it's an amazing dynamic. 08:18 Yeah, what does homosexual marriage do 08:20 for the number of students in the school? 08:22 It's completely contrary. 08:23 It's not in the longtime interest of 08:25 what they're paid to do is. 08:26 That's right. It's contrary to their business model. 08:27 So you cannot say, well, this is just a group of people 08:30 who're interested in the unions 08:32 who work in collective bargain. 08:34 This is a group that has an ideological point of view. 08:37 Yeah, that's goes beyond 08:39 their immediate work activity. Really. 08:42 Yeah, one of the interesting things 08:44 is the General Counsel of the NEA just recently retired. 08:49 His name is Bob Shannon. 08:51 And Bob's been a friend of mine for years. 08:53 We obviously disagree on the issues 08:55 but we're friendly to each other. 08:58 Bob's closing farewell at the NEA convention 09:02 said in essence we're not really-- 09:05 about collective bargain. 09:06 We're about changing the nation. 09:08 So they have a solution to do. 09:09 Yeah, right. And he complained 09:12 I cannot say on this program what he calls me. 09:16 He was talking about the lawyers and gave a name 09:19 that are suing the NEA. 09:21 I believe I've sued the NEA more than any living lawyer. 09:24 So I actually wrote a note to Bob and said, 09:27 Bob, I said, you call me by this name 09:30 but you didn't say my name. 09:31 You could should've at least said, 09:33 and that so Bruce Cameron and so he was back 09:36 and say Bruce you and me prepare a speech 09:38 there was a footnote that said, about 09:41 referring to my friend Bruce Cameron, yeah. 09:45 Well, when there's serious issues 09:46 at play and I'm glad for you to bring this up. 09:49 Because it isn't just as simple 09:52 as the very basic thing for Adventists about cohesion 09:55 and you know we shouldn't be 09:57 Co-opting to do it and it might compromise our faith. 09:59 This is very much like voting which we should do. 10:04 Well, not so much we should vote 10:05 but we should be a good citizen 10:07 of the country. Right. 10:08 But we don't have a choice about that. 10:10 That's part of the larger obligation 10:11 but an organization that should be voluntary 10:15 to make it cohesive to then have an agenda 10:18 that's out of sync with certainly a Christian morality. 10:22 I think is problematic and so you're at that 10:25 we should defend Seventh-day Adventists 10:28 and others of faith 10:29 who don't want to be co-opted into this. 10:31 So what can they do? While that's the big issue. 10:33 So tell me some more stories about. 10:35 How you've worked to defend people 10:39 against this sort of an agenda. 10:40 Well see the employee then is who is convicted 10:43 Of this. You know, the Holy Spirit says 10:45 to them look you shouldn't support this labor union. 10:47 What do they do? They don't want to lose their job. 10:50 They don't want to put their family at risk, 10:53 but they don't want to compromise 10:54 your obligation to God. So, they've got this huge dilemma. 10:59 So here's what they do. 11:01 They call me up 11:03 And the--one of the great blessings in my life 11:06 is God has allowed me to litigate these issues. 11:09 National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation 11:11 has funded the cases. 11:13 So I'm able to help employees for free. 11:14 And we've been able to move the law 11:17 from protecting simply Seventh-day Adventist 11:20 to all sincere religious objectives. 11:22 So when an employee comes to me and says, Bruce, 11:25 so what should I do? What they need to do is this. 11:27 First they have to let the union 11:29 and the employer know about the conflict. 11:32 I say write a letter layout the nature 11:35 of your religious beliefs and then when the employer 11:38 and the union get this, that triggers an obligation 11:41 under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 11:44 for them to attempt an accommodations. 11:47 Are most of them settled at that level? 11:48 I've got the impression with many--Yes. 11:50 Labor--not labor-- many employee issues. 11:54 Most this is a blessing; you know, I would say, 11:58 95 % of the employees come to me. 12:02 When they write a letter to the union, the employer, 12:04 that ends the problem. 12:07 Now what is the employee have to do? 12:09 The employee pays the union fees to a charity 12:12 instead to the union. 12:14 So what happens? The union is satisfied 12:16 that everyone is paying fees. 12:18 The employee's conscience is clear 12:20 and a charity is benefited by this. 12:24 That seems a reasonable approach. 12:26 Unlike the example I gave you privately 12:31 but I won't identify it. But I was aware 12:33 of a church organization in other country 12:37 where there was strong unions that 12:39 they were abiding by the union pay guidelines. 12:43 And they were paying every year 12:44 and an amount of money exactly equal to the unions 12:47 used to the union so that they would leave them alone. 12:49 The end result Was, they might as 12:51 well have been in the United States 12:53 just deprived of the workers of some input. 12:55 In the United States that's a felony. 12:57 under the National Labor Relations Act. 12:59 We'll be back after the break to continue 13:01 this discussion with Professor Bruce Cameroon 13:05 an expert on unions and religious accommodations. 13:10 Stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17