Welcome, to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that
brings you discussion, news,
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Views, and insights
into religious liberty events
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and concerns in
the United States
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the program
is Professor Bruce Cameron,
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who is the Reed Larson
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Professor of Law the
at Regent University.
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Welcome again,
Bruce. It's a pleasure
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to have on you on this program.
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You and I've some
contact over the years
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but it's--this is
the first occasion
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that I've had you as a guest.
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We do, we're
gonna do a few programs.
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It's a delight to be here.
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And you're very
special to me because you're--
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anybody I've contacted
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when I've been in
the Liberty editorship,
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you're the only one
that's really an expert
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in labor unions and
religious accommodation.
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And I know, you could
talk and lecture--as teacher.
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I teach a class on this--
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Yes, like Nuke
Gingrich running in the--
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Uh, don't compare me to Newt.
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No, but I can tell he's got
a bit of an unfair advantage
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that he's used to
talking and holding an audience.
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But it's a gift I think
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and you're very good at
presenting in your case.
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Let's talk a little bit,
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you know, this may not be
the only program we'll do on it.
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But let's talk a
bit of more about,
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how do we relate to unions?
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Especially
Seventh-day Adventists,
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especially Christians and
those that have principles,
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you know, why is there a problem
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joining in labor union
and what is the dynamic
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that's so problematic.
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Well, the historical concern
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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and its members has
been that labor unions
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approach the employer in a way
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that's inconsistent with
the teaching of the Bible.
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For example, in the
Ephesians' 6, we read that,
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"We should work
for our employers
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if we're working for God."
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The idea of
striking against God,
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the idea of
blackjacking God, you know,
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to get him to
give more benefits.
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Was it Jesus that
told that parable about
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the workmen hiring
people at different points
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during the day
and they come to him
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and try and cry
foul and he says,
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you know, this
was our agreement--
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you know, why you're
challenging me basically?
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Precisely our
labor unions believe
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everyone should be
paid the same amount
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who is in the
same job classification
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contrary to that payable.
But even more contrary is--
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you remember the
story of the soldiers
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who came to John, the
Baptists, and said to him,
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"What should we do?"
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That's in Luke 3. And
John, the Baptists said to them,
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"Don't extort money and
be content with your wages."
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I think that is
a job description
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for organized labor.
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Extorting money and being
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and spreading
discontent for wages.
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And so historically
Seventh-day Adventists
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have said,
this-- Now can I--Sure.
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Interject, also-- Also--
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In Revelation, it says,
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as a
characteristic of the-in times
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that the employer has
held back wages by fraud.
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I mean if I was-- no
I'm not trying to undercut
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your point but I
think, what the Bible argues
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for is an ideal social contract.
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And employer that is
charitable and honest
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toward his employee
and employee that gives
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appropriate work
doesn't just take the money
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and so it has to
work on two-sides.
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It is James that says, 'Are
you unfair to your servant'?
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Are you unfair to your slave?
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We have a common master
that is you and the slave.
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You mistreat that servant
and you're accountable to me.
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So, yes, the
Bible has statements
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about how employees.
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He calls them slaves
but I think it's fair
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to apply to employees that
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how they should
treat their employer
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and employer
should treat employees.
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Now, the fact that
an employer may not
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treat an employee properly.
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Doesn't let an
employee Off the hook
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of obeying God or vice versa.
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So, the good news
you'll be pleased to know is,
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I don't represent labor unions,
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I don't represent employers,
I only represent employees.
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So there can be bad employers
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and it's not going
to cause heartburn..
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And since we're talking about
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Seventh-day Adventist position,
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Ellen White, I
believe, under inspiration
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and certainly in
accordance with the thinking
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of the early
Adventist was quite definitive.
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I wish I had the statement.
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I thought I was pulling it
this morning from my papers
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but she says something
that no Seventh-day Adventist
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is expecting the return
of Christ could ever join--
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could join any trade
union that ever has been
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or will be. So
that's pretty definitive.
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Well, it seems to
me that the approach
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of organized labor is
contrary to the gospel.
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If you truly are
a person who says--
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the essence of
the gospel is this,
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God gave his life for us.
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And as a follower
it's my obligation to
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give up my life for others.
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You cannot have
that philosophy in life
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and say to an employer.
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I'm going to harm your work,
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your business if
you don't give me more.
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You cannot say to an employer
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as unions can often do,
I'll breakup your stuff.
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You know, I'll burn up
and destroy your-equipment.
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That's where the unions, I
think have gone beyond civil law
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as a proprietary not
just moral Christian morality.
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Right so you know,
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a Christian should
naturally say wait a minute.
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Wait a minute. Is
this an association
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that I should be a part of?
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Am I being unequally yoked
with unbelievers by the union?
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And going to be forced
the dynamic of requiring
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under some serious penalty
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perhaps not even
being able to work.
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That's an amazing
compulsion. Isn't that?
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Well, see that's exactly right.
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There is another
aspect to this too
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of the employees I represent.
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There are number of labor
unions in the United States
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including the
largest labor union
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which is The National
Education Association.
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There are active
lobbyists on some of the most
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important social
issues of the day.
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For example, the
National Education Association
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is a pro-abortion lobby.
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It is a
pro-homosexual marriage lobby.
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And so Christians
who take those issues
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very seriously
say, wait a minute,
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do I want to be a part of an
organization that's doing that?
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It's not just how
do I treat my employer?
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You say well do I want
to be part of a movement
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and have my
money and my influence
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used to promote
those things? So, that's--
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Even as you say that
it just occurred to me
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I've never
heard how those unions
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adopted those
position. Was it done
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in anything close
to a democratic process
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or to just union organizers
sort of have an affinity
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there and this is what they do.
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Well the-- Is it
reflecting the true
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majority opinion
of their members?
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I've--I'm sure if the NEA
lawyer where listening to this
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he'd said Bruce
Cameron you're not entitled to
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the comment on the
democracy and the NEA.
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The NEA claims it's a
huge democratic institution,
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but I will tell you
this, my experience is that
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it's the NEA
activists at the local
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that are involved
in state activities
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because the
rest of the teachers.
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Just want to do their
job help their students,
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go home and be
with their family.
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They're not
interested in this other stuff.
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So, you get a core
of activists that elect
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another core of
activist and you get
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the people at the top who
are these hard left activists
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Lincoln, here's
the proof of this.
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Whatever, an
NEA lawyer might say
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about my argument
here's the proof of it.
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What does every
trade union try to do?
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They try to
protect their work product.
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The long shore
men don't want ships
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to come into
the non-union ports.
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They want them to
come into the ports
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where they have agreements.
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The UAW doesn't want
Japanese import cars.
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They want to keep them out.
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They want to
protect their work product.
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What's the work
product for a teacher?
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Its students.
What does abortion do
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to the number of
students in a school?
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Oh, it's an amazing dynamic.
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Yeah, what does
homosexual marriage do
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for the number of
students in the school?
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It's completely contrary.
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It's not in the
longtime interest of
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what they're paid to do is.
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That's right. It's contrary
to their business model.
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So you cannot say, well,
this is just a group of people
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who're interested in the unions
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who work in collective bargain.
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This is a group that has
an ideological point of view.
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Yeah, that's goes beyond
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their immediate
work activity. Really.
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Yeah, one of the
interesting things
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is the General Counsel of
the NEA just recently retired.
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His name is Bob Shannon.
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And Bob's been a
friend of mine for years.
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We obviously
disagree on the issues
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but we're
friendly to each other.
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Bob's closing
farewell at the NEA convention
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said in essence
we're not really--
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about collective bargain.
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We're about changing the nation.
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So they have a solution to do.
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Yeah, right. And he complained
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I cannot say on this
program what he calls me.
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He was talking about
the lawyers and gave a name
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that are suing the NEA.
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I believe I've sued the NEA
more than any living lawyer.
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So I actually wrote
a note to Bob and said,
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Bob, I said, you
call me by this name
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but you didn't say my name.
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You could
should've at least said,
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and that so Bruce
Cameron and so he was back
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and say Bruce you
and me prepare a speech
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there was a
footnote that said, about
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referring to my
friend Bruce Cameron, yeah.
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Well, when
there's serious issues
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at play and I'm glad
for you to bring this up.
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Because it isn't just as simple
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as the very basic thing
for Adventists about cohesion
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and you know we shouldn't be
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Co-opting to do it and it
might compromise our faith.
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This is very much like
voting which we should do.
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Well, not so much we should vote
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but we should be a good citizen
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of the country. Right.
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But we don't have
a choice about that.
00:10:08.76\00:10:10.10
That's part of
the larger obligation
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but an organization
that should be voluntary
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to make it cohesive
to then have an agenda
00:10:15.38\00:10:17.99
that's out of sync with
certainly a Christian morality.
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I think is problematic
and so you're at that
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we should defend
Seventh-day Adventists
00:10:25.42\00:10:28.21
and others of faith
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who don't want to
be co-opted into this.
00:10:29.25\00:10:31.03
So what can they do?
While that's the big issue.
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So tell me some
more stories about.
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How you've
worked to defend people
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against this sort of an agenda.
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Well see the employee
then is who is convicted
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Of this. You know,
the Holy Spirit says
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to them look you shouldn't
support this labor union.
00:10:45.17\00:10:47.71
What do they do? They
don't want to lose their job.
00:10:47.72\00:10:50.68
They don't want to
put their family at risk,
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but they don't
want to compromise
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your obligation to God. So,
they've got this huge dilemma.
00:10:54.69\00:10:59.80
So here's what they do.
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They call me up
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And the--one of the
great blessings in my life
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is God has allowed me
to litigate these issues.
00:11:06.68\00:11:09.82
National Right to Work
Legal Defense Foundation
00:11:09.83\00:11:11.79
has funded the cases.
00:11:11.80\00:11:13.19
So I'm able to
help employees for free.
00:11:13.20\00:11:14.95
And we've been
able to move the law
00:11:14.96\00:11:17.75
from protecting
simply Seventh-day Adventist
00:11:17.76\00:11:20.27
to all sincere
religious objectives.
00:11:20.28\00:11:22.64
So when an employee
comes to me and says, Bruce,
00:11:22.65\00:11:25.19
so what should I do?
What they need to do is this.
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First they have to let the union
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and the employer
know about the conflict.
00:11:29.61\00:11:32.61
I say write a
letter layout the nature
00:11:32.62\00:11:35.09
of your religious beliefs
and then when the employer
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and the union get this,
that triggers an obligation
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under Title VII of the
Civil Rights Act of 1964
00:11:41.24\00:11:44.28
for them to
attempt an accommodations.
00:11:44.29\00:11:47.27
Are most of them
settled at that level?
00:11:47.28\00:11:48.77
I've got the
impression with many--Yes.
00:11:48.78\00:11:50.42
Labor--not labor--
many employee issues.
00:11:50.43\00:11:53.99
Most this is a
blessing; you know, I would say,
00:11:54.00\00:11:58.22
95 % of the
employees come to me.
00:11:58.23\00:12:02.06
When they write a letter
to the union, the employer,
00:12:02.07\00:12:04.29
that ends the problem.
00:12:04.30\00:12:07.66
Now what is the
employee have to do?
00:12:07.67\00:12:09.11
The employee pays the
union fees to a charity
00:12:09.12\00:12:12.78
instead to the union.
00:12:12.79\00:12:14.24
So what happens?
The union is satisfied
00:12:14.25\00:12:16.36
that everyone is paying fees.
00:12:16.37\00:12:18.81
The employee's
conscience is clear
00:12:18.82\00:12:20.75
and a charity is
benefited by this.
00:12:20.76\00:12:24.54
That seems a
reasonable approach.
00:12:24.55\00:12:26.48
Unlike the example
I gave you privately
00:12:26.49\00:12:31.00
but I won't
identify it. But I was aware
00:12:31.01\00:12:33.50
of a church
organization in other country
00:12:33.51\00:12:37.70
where there was
strong unions that
00:12:37.71\00:12:39.14
they were abiding by
the union pay guidelines.
00:12:39.15\00:12:43.00
And they were paying every year
00:12:43.01\00:12:44.22
and an amount of money
exactly equal to the unions
00:12:44.23\00:12:47.01
used to the union so that
they would leave them alone.
00:12:47.02\00:12:49.82
The end result
Was, they might as
00:12:49.83\00:12:51.95
well have been
in the United States
00:12:51.96\00:12:53.03
just deprived of the
workers of some input.
00:12:53.04\00:12:55.37
In the United
States that's a felony.
00:12:55.38\00:12:57.20
under the National
Labor Relations Act.
00:12:57.21\00:12:59.49
We'll be back after
the break to continue
00:12:59.50\00:13:01.66
this discussion with
Professor Bruce Cameroon
00:13:01.67\00:13:05.21
an expert on unions and
religious accommodations.
00:13:05.22\00:13:10.13
Stay with us.
00:13:10.14\00:13:11.33