Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bruce N. Cameron
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000166B
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00:02 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break, we've guest Bruce Cameron. 00:07 We were talking about labor unions 00:10 and religious accommodation in the workplace. 00:12 And you've been sharing 00:13 some very interesting insights. 00:15 I know this is your special deal. 00:17 And you've written a few articles for Liberty. 00:19 And we've talked a bit, but everything you say 00:22 makes me think even more deeply on this topic. 00:25 Well, remember we've discussed my client, 00:27 Dr. Robert Reiser, who worked for a Jesuit University 00:31 who fired him because of his fidelity 00:34 to Catholic social teaching. 00:37 And so he came and he said, 00:39 "Bruce, can you help me?" 00:41 Now consider where we've gone 00:43 on the development of the law. 00:44 We started out with protecting 00:46 just Seventh-day Adventist people 00:48 who had a church doctrine that backed them up. 00:51 And then we went to Josephine Nichols 00:53 who had a per se objection to labor unions 00:56 but she wasn't a member of a church 00:57 that taught that. 00:58 Now we've moved to a guy 01:01 who did not have a per se objection to labor unions. 01:04 But nevertheless had a very sincere personal objection 01:07 which is what you were talking about before. 01:10 It should be the most important. 01:11 Right. Backed up by a doctrine of this church, 01:14 but not a doctrine on labor unions. 01:15 So we filed suit in federal court 01:18 against the Jesuits 01:19 and against the NEA affiliate 01:23 and we said, "He has a right to an accommodation 01:27 just like Seventh-day Adventist 01:28 just like Josephine Nichols." 01:30 And the trial court, disagreed with us 01:33 and said, "No, he only gets a rebate 01:35 of that amount of money spent on abortion." 01:37 But the United States Court of Appeals 01:39 for the Sixth Circuit reversed 01:40 and said, "No, you've to accommodate 01:43 all aspects of his religious belief." 01:45 Because he not only objects to his money 01:48 being used to promote abortion, 01:50 he objects to associating with an organization 01:53 that is a pro-abortion lobby. 01:55 And so that was the huge breakthrough. 01:58 I think that's the most important case 01:59 I've ever litigated 02:01 because now the vast majority of my clients 02:05 are teachers represented by NEA affiliate 02:09 who say the NEA promotes 02:11 homosexual rights. 02:13 The NEA promotes abortion rights. 02:15 And these are contrary to my faith. 02:17 And I don't wanna choose 02:19 between my conscience and my job. 02:24 But tell me something. 02:26 I'm sure you've got a good answer to this. 02:28 The idea that by giving unions used to a union 02:31 that's involved in behavior 02:32 that's antithetical to your personal morality. 02:36 It seems reasonable. 02:37 Aren't we in that same dynamic as taxpayers 02:40 where the US Government is spending serious money 02:43 and even now money 02:47 promoting family planning 02:50 and abortion and things like that. 02:52 But war even if you're against war. 02:55 Where do you draw the line that just as a membership 02:59 or what others are doing in a derivative way 03:03 with your money, you know, 03:04 how responsible are you? 03:05 And Ellen White spoke to early Seventh-day Adventists 03:08 and said that you take some responsibility 03:10 when you vote for a person. 03:11 If you vote them into office, 03:13 they're acting on your behalf 03:14 and you have some responsibility 03:17 for what they do. 03:19 Well, Lincoln, we're gonna put the union lawyer hat on you 03:22 because that's precisely 03:23 what union lawyers ask my client in depositions. 03:27 In this case, they said, 03:28 "You pay taxes, don't you?" 03:29 Isn't the government promoting a law-- 03:32 I'm not trying to excuse unions, 03:33 but I'm trying to--should we be more worried 03:37 about on the larger scene, 03:39 "What's done with their money, truly with their money." 03:42 Well, where do we draw-- how do we draw the line? 03:43 Here's how I draw the line. 03:45 And I think it's very simple. 03:46 Paul says, "Pay taxes to Rome." 03:49 The Roman's--Rome's obviously an evil empire 03:53 at that time. Labor-- 03:54 Because the currency is the states after all. 03:57 You're only returning to them 03:58 what they minted in the first place. Good point. 04:00 Right. See, you-- Jesus said to pay taxes. 04:04 There is a difference between paying support 04:07 for the sovereign and paying to support 04:11 a private party labor organization. 04:12 Now labor unions often get confused 04:15 about who's the sovereign, 04:16 them, or the true sovereign but that's the answer. 04:20 The Bible I think is very clear 04:21 that Christians are under an obligation 04:23 to pay a tax to the nation 04:26 in which they live regardless of the merits 04:28 of that nation's policies but at the same time, 04:32 the Bible says, "Don't be unequally 04:34 yoked with unbelievers." 04:36 And that really is, you know, 04:38 the people I help today don't wanna support 04:41 the union because its abortion, 04:43 homosexual rights those kinds of things. 04:45 But the Seventh-day Adventists from the beginning 04:47 were saying it is this conflict 04:51 between the way unions deal with their employer 04:55 and my faith that creates the controversy. 04:58 And in that way I'm unequally yoked with unbelievers. 05:01 There's another-- just this morning, 05:03 I was reading some of the advice that the visionary, 05:09 Adventist pioneer, Ellen White, 05:11 wrote on labor unions. 05:13 And her major objection was that 05:16 its part of the phenomenon of the end days 05:20 of confederacies bundles together 05:22 she says for the burning. 05:24 Yes, I've read those statements. 05:27 That's an interesting dynamic, 05:28 which I don't think to this day 05:29 very many of fellow Seventh-day Adventists 05:32 quite understand that, that's much bigger 05:36 a issue than the labor unions. 05:38 And I think its part of what we observe 05:39 in the whole country, in the business world, 05:41 which led to the collapse in my view. 05:43 Take a corporate takeovers, and consolidations, 05:46 and alliances between this and that group 05:49 and so that the like-minded groups 05:52 or business entities are clustering or polarizing. 05:57 It's a sort of a polarization of society on every level. 06:00 Well, I don't object to people 06:02 who have like interests getting to-- 06:04 Well, it's the way the world works. 06:05 But she sees that it's sort of revealing itself more 06:09 and you wouldn't bundle yourself with a group 06:12 that as you say about the unions, 06:14 it embraces some behaviors and programs 06:16 that are antithetical to our Christian belief. 06:18 Well, it's not just that, 06:19 but labor unions are also a legally protected monopoly 06:24 and what they do is they act on behalf of the collective. 06:27 And a very strong theme in what Ellen White writes 06:30 about labor unions is that they give up 06:33 individual rights for the right of their collective 06:36 and it's the boarder, you know, that takes the individual 06:39 and eliminates the individual personality. 06:43 So what happens today under American law, 06:46 unions become the exclusive bargaining representative 06:49 that means every employee is disabled 06:52 from approaching their employer with regard 06:55 to their terms and conditions of employment. 06:56 You can only go through the union. 06:58 So the union--the union's approach is twofold, 07:02 number one, to say we squelch the individual 07:06 on behalf of the strength of the collective, 07:08 which I think is antithetical to individual rights. 07:11 And they say, with regard to the employer, 07:14 we will force you into this. 07:16 If you don't agree to work with us 07:18 or give us what we want, we'll strike against you, 07:21 which is essentially blackjacking the employer 07:24 into what they want. 07:26 Now the Bible says in Ephesians 6, it says, 07:30 "The Christians to work for your employers 07:32 if you're working for God, 07:34 would you blackjack your God?" 07:36 You know, I mean, obviously many will say, 07:38 dear God, please do this, we need so and so. 07:44 I have held forth here in the discussions 07:47 that is a matter of history. 07:51 May we may have outlived the usefulness of it 07:53 but there was a point where capital and slash employers 07:57 where prepared to see workers just as cogs 08:02 within the money making machinery. 08:04 And then they didn't do the right thing. 08:06 And unions were a necessary rising up 08:09 against that and the dynamic of one right against 08:12 or the individual's right against money. 08:15 I'm glad that battle was fought and won 08:17 and I think that it's made a big difference 08:20 to the living we enjoy today. 08:22 But it's possible, in fact, more than possible likely, 08:25 I think you'd agree, certain 08:27 that the present dynamic of unions is not necessarily 08:31 morally right nor even democratically pure. 08:35 Well, let's look at the facts on that. 08:37 Organized labor represents less than seven percent 08:41 of the employees in the private sector. 08:43 Less than seven percent. 08:45 Are you telling me that seven percent wags the dog? 08:48 It's the tail that wags the dog-- 08:49 I think our laws picked up 08:52 where the unions pushed the way. 08:56 I mean, in the US, 08:57 the law used to clearly favor big business. 09:01 I mean the whole era here in the US 09:05 particularly of the Pinkerton's private police 09:08 used by big business to put down labor unrest 09:11 that was very repressive. 09:12 Well, I accept you talked about individual access 09:15 as opposed to the protection of law. 09:18 But I guess what I'm talking about is-- 09:20 Antitrust legislation of the laws 09:22 has broken that old dynamic. 09:24 If people are involved in violence, 09:26 whether they're the employer or the union, 09:28 it's obviously contrary to individual liberty, 09:30 and individual freedom, and should be condemned. 09:33 Well, it may not be contrary 09:35 to civil constructs of freedom 09:36 but it's certainly contrary to God's way 09:39 and Christian-- I don't think a Christian. 09:41 Well, I mean what I'm thinking of Thomas Jefferson 09:44 was wonderfully keen of the people rising up 09:47 and spilling and shedding blood for freedom. 09:50 Well, that's revolution as opposed to and how-- 09:54 History books in our study here 09:55 extol the American Revolution and, 09:58 you know, I could wish it didn't happen 09:59 because from a Christian's point of view 10:01 I think all violence begets violence 10:03 and it's not good in itself. 10:06 Well, here's the thing. 10:07 We're able to have this wonderful charter 10:09 for religious freedom as a result of that 10:13 and so see that's the point here. 10:16 It seems to me that the market controls 10:19 what wages are today. Not organized labor. 10:22 Yes. You're right. 10:23 Organized labor's strength these days-- 10:24 Has moved beyond that-- 10:26 Is in the public sector. 10:28 So who is the big bad employer in the public sector? 10:31 It's you, Lincoln, the taxpayer. 10:33 You're the bad guy that they're against 10:35 and so it's totally secured labor. 10:39 I mean, whatever you might say about the past labor. 10:42 Today, the power of labor is in--organized labor 10:46 and not individuals organized labor 10:48 is in the public sector 10:50 where they are dictating public policy. 10:53 Now you and I need to talk sometime 10:54 about Wisconsin what happened. 10:56 But Ellen White's--yes, we, may in other program. 10:59 And what Ellen White warned 11:01 using prophetic biblical markers 11:03 is that labor unions will play a very clear role 11:06 in repressing freedom of conscience 11:08 to further get into the end time scenario. 11:10 So I think the dynamic you're outlining is very clear 11:14 the unions are not really working in the correct way 11:20 for individual and even democratic freedom. 11:23 Well, and they subvert individual freedom 11:25 and democratic rights for this reason. 11:27 If you support a candidate, 11:28 you can go out and campaign for that candidate. 11:30 You can contribute to that candidate. 11:32 You can write letters to the editor for that candidate. 11:34 You never have your money used for an opponent. 11:37 Organized labor takes compulsory duce. That's true. 11:40 Forced by the government and uses it 11:43 to support candidates who they-- 11:45 that is who the employee does not choose. 11:47 And so I think the religious liberty issue 11:51 these days for a Christian who is serious is to say, 11:54 "You know, I'm gonna stand apart from a labor union. 11:57 I'm not gonna be a part of a system 11:59 that I think is contrary to the gospel." 12:03 Proponents of religious freedom 12:06 are involved in what onlookers 12:08 might think are indefensible actions. 12:11 Very often defending religious freedom means 12:14 defending those who may seem on the wrong side 12:17 of the fence on religious liberty issues. 12:21 Bruce Cameron, I think, has explained very clearly though 12:25 the moral principle behind our churches 12:27 stands on trade unions. 12:30 There is a restriction of individual choice. 12:32 There is a readiness to subvert 12:36 the individual's faith stance to a majoritarian opinion 12:41 that really at times is turned deaf to those needs. 12:46 But as he pointed out, there're times 12:47 when he might be defending someone 12:50 who on the sectarian level, 12:51 we might have a great difference with. 12:54 It may be another faith entirely. 12:57 A faith practice that we find even abhorrent 13:00 but it might be necessary to defend them 13:03 against either a trade union or a government 13:06 or a societal attitude that would restrict 13:09 what they as a matter of conscience 13:12 hold to be true and important. 13:14 This is our privilege in defending religious freedom. 13:18 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17