Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break,
we've guest Bruce Cameron.
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We were talking
about labor unions
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and religious
accommodation in the workplace.
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And you've been sharing
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some very interesting insights.
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I know this is
your special deal.
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And you've written a
few articles for Liberty.
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And we've talked a
bit, but everything you say
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makes me think even
more deeply on this topic.
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Well, remember
we've discussed my client,
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Dr. Robert Reiser, who
worked for a Jesuit University
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who fired him
because of his fidelity
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to Catholic social teaching.
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And so he came and he said,
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"Bruce, can you help me?"
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Now consider where we've gone
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on the development of the law.
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We started out with protecting
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just
Seventh-day Adventist people
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who had a church
doctrine that backed them up.
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And then we went
to Josephine Nichols
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who had a per se
objection to labor unions
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but she wasn't a
member of a church
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that taught that.
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Now we've moved to a guy
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who did not have a per se
objection to labor unions.
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But nevertheless had a
very sincere personal objection
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which is what you
were talking about before.
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It should be the most important.
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Right. Backed up by a
doctrine of this church,
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but not a
doctrine on labor unions.
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So we filed
suit in federal court
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against the Jesuits
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and against the NEA affiliate
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and we said, "He has a
right to an accommodation
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just like Seventh-day Adventist
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just like Josephine Nichols."
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And the trial
court, disagreed with us
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and said, "No, he
only gets a rebate
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of that amount of
money spent on abortion."
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But the United
States Court of Appeals
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for the Sixth Circuit reversed
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and said, "No,
you've to accommodate
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all aspects of
his religious belief."
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Because he not only
objects to his money
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being used to promote abortion,
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he objects to
associating with an organization
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that is a pro-abortion lobby.
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And so that was
the huge breakthrough.
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I think that's the
most important case
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I've ever litigated
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because now the vast
majority of my clients
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are teachers
represented by NEA affiliate
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who say the NEA promotes
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homosexual rights.
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The NEA
promotes abortion rights.
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And these are
contrary to my faith.
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And I don't wanna choose
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between my
conscience and my job.
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But tell me something.
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I'm sure you've got
a good answer to this.
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The idea that by
giving unions used to a union
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that's involved in behavior
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that's antithetical to
your personal morality.
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It seems reasonable.
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Aren't we in that
same dynamic as taxpayers
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where the US Government
is spending serious money
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and even now money
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promoting family planning
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and abortion and
things like that.
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But war even if
you're against war.
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Where do you draw the
line that just as a membership
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or what others are
doing in a derivative way
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with your money, you know,
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how responsible are you?
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And Ellen White spoke to
early Seventh-day Adventists
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and said that you
take some responsibility
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when you vote for a person.
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If you vote them into office,
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they're acting on your behalf
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and you have some responsibility
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for what they do.
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Well, Lincoln, we're gonna
put the union lawyer hat on you
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because that's precisely
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what union lawyers ask
my client in depositions.
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In this case, they said,
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"You pay taxes, don't you?"
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Isn't the
government promoting a law--
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I'm not trying to excuse unions,
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but I'm trying
to--should we be more worried
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about on the larger scene,
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"What's done with their
money, truly with their money."
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Well, where do we
draw-- how do we draw the line?
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Here's how I draw the line.
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And I think it's very simple.
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Paul says, "Pay taxes to Rome."
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The Roman's--Rome's
obviously an evil empire
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at that time. Labor--
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Because the currency
is the states after all.
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You're only returning to them
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what they minted in the
first place. Good point.
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Right. See, you--
Jesus said to pay taxes.
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There is a difference
between paying support
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for the sovereign
and paying to support
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a private party
labor organization.
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Now labor unions
often get confused
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about who's the sovereign,
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them, or the true
sovereign but that's the answer.
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The Bible I think is very clear
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that Christians
are under an obligation
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to pay a tax to the nation
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in which they live
regardless of the merits
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of that nation's
policies but at the same time,
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the Bible says,
"Don't be unequally
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yoked with unbelievers."
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And that really is, you know,
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the people I help
today don't wanna support
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the union because its abortion,
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homosexual rights
those kinds of things.
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But the Seventh-day
Adventists from the beginning
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were saying it is this conflict
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between the way unions
deal with their employer
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and my faith that
creates the controversy.
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And in that way I'm unequally
yoked with unbelievers.
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There's another--
just this morning,
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I was reading some of the
advice that the visionary,
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Adventist pioneer, Ellen White,
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wrote on labor unions.
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And her major objection was that
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its part of the
phenomenon of the end days
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of
confederacies bundles together
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she says for the burning.
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Yes, I've read those statements.
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That's an interesting dynamic,
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which I don't think to this day
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very many of fellow
Seventh-day Adventists
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quite understand
that, that's much bigger
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a issue than the labor unions.
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And I think its
part of what we observe
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in the whole country,
in the business world,
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which led to the
collapse in my view.
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Take a corporate
takeovers, and consolidations,
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and alliances
between this and that group
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and so that the
like-minded groups
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or business entities are
clustering or polarizing.
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It's a sort of a polarization
of society on every level.
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Well, I don't object to people
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who have like
interests getting to--
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Well, it's the
way the world works.
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But she sees that it's
sort of revealing itself more
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and you wouldn't
bundle yourself with a group
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that as you say
about the unions,
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it embraces some
behaviors and programs
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that are antithetical
to our Christian belief.
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Well, it's not just that,
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but labor unions are also
a legally protected monopoly
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and what they do is they
act on behalf of the collective.
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And a very strong theme
in what Ellen White writes
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about labor unions
is that they give up
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individual rights for
the right of their collective
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and it's the boarder, you
know, that takes the individual
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and eliminates the
individual personality.
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So what happens
today under American law,
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unions become the exclusive
bargaining representative
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that means every
employee is disabled
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from approaching
their employer with regard
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to their terms and
conditions of employment.
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You can only go
through the union.
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So the union--the
union's approach is twofold,
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number one, to say we
squelch the individual
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on behalf of the
strength of the collective,
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which I think is antithetical
to individual rights.
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And they say, with
regard to the employer,
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we will force you into this.
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If you don't
agree to work with us
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or give us what we want,
we'll strike against you,
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which is essentially
blackjacking the employer
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into what they want.
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Now the Bible says
in Ephesians 6, it says,
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"The Christians to
work for your employers
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if you're working for God,
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would you blackjack your God?"
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You know, I mean,
obviously many will say,
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dear God, please do
this, we need so and so.
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I have held forth
here in the discussions
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that is a matter of history.
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May we may have
outlived the usefulness of it
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but there was a point where
capital and slash employers
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where prepared to
see workers just as cogs
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within the money
making machinery.
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And then they
didn't do the right thing.
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And unions were a
necessary rising up
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against that and the
dynamic of one right against
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or the individual's
right against money.
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I'm glad that
battle was fought and won
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and I think that
it's made a big difference
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to the living we enjoy today.
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But it's possible, in
fact, more than possible likely,
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I think you'd agree, certain
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that the present dynamic
of unions is not necessarily
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morally right nor
even democratically pure.
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Well, let's look
at the facts on that.
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Organized labor represents
less than seven percent
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of the employees
in the private sector.
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Less than seven percent.
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Are you telling me that
seven percent wags the dog?
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It's the tail
that wags the dog--
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I think our laws picked up
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where the unions pushed the way.
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I mean, in the US,
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the law used to
clearly favor big business.
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I mean the whole
era here in the US
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particularly of the
Pinkerton's private police
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used by big business
to put down labor unrest
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that was very repressive.
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Well, I accept you
talked about individual access
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as opposed to the
protection of law.
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But I guess what
I'm talking about is--
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Antitrust
legislation of the laws
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has broken that old dynamic.
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If people are
involved in violence,
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whether they're the
employer or the union,
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it's obviously
contrary to individual liberty,
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and individual freedom,
and should be condemned.
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Well, it may not be contrary
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to civil constructs of freedom
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but it's certainly
contrary to God's way
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and Christian-- I
don't think a Christian.
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Well, I mean what I'm
thinking of Thomas Jefferson
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was wonderfully keen
of the people rising up
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and spilling and
shedding blood for freedom.
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Well, that's revolution
as opposed to and how--
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History books in our study here
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extol the
American Revolution and,
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you know, I could
wish it didn't happen
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because from a
Christian's point of view
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I think all
violence begets violence
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and it's not good in itself.
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Well, here's the thing.
00:10:06.24\00:10:07.53
We're able to have
this wonderful charter
00:10:07.54\00:10:09.72
for religious
freedom as a result of that
00:10:09.73\00:10:13.35
and so see
that's the point here.
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It seems to me
that the market controls
00:10:16.72\00:10:19.70
what wages are
today. Not organized labor.
00:10:19.71\00:10:22.48
Yes. You're right.
00:10:22.49\00:10:23.49
Organized labor's
strength these days--
00:10:23.50\00:10:24.57
Has moved beyond that--
00:10:24.58\00:10:26.43
Is in the public sector.
00:10:26.44\00:10:28.43
So who is the big bad
employer in the public sector?
00:10:28.44\00:10:31.30
It's you, Lincoln, the taxpayer.
00:10:31.31\00:10:33.48
You're the bad guy
that they're against
00:10:33.49\00:10:35.61
and so it's
totally secured labor.
00:10:35.62\00:10:39.26
I mean, whatever you
might say about the past labor.
00:10:39.27\00:10:42.49
Today, the power of
labor is in--organized labor
00:10:42.50\00:10:46.43
and not
individuals organized labor
00:10:46.44\00:10:48.61
is in the public sector
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where they are
dictating public policy.
00:10:50.20\00:10:53.22
Now you and I
need to talk sometime
00:10:53.23\00:10:54.82
about Wisconsin what happened.
00:10:54.83\00:10:56.31
But Ellen White's--yes,
we, may in other program.
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And what Ellen White warned
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using prophetic biblical markers
00:11:01.17\00:11:03.71
is that labor unions
will play a very clear role
00:11:03.72\00:11:06.68
in repressing
freedom of conscience
00:11:06.69\00:11:08.45
to further get into
the end time scenario.
00:11:08.46\00:11:10.87
So I think the dynamic
you're outlining is very clear
00:11:10.88\00:11:14.27
the unions are not really
working in the correct way
00:11:14.28\00:11:20.11
for individual and
even democratic freedom.
00:11:20.12\00:11:22.97
Well, and they
subvert individual freedom
00:11:22.98\00:11:25.18
and democratic
rights for this reason.
00:11:25.19\00:11:27.19
If you support a candidate,
00:11:27.20\00:11:28.74
you can go out and
campaign for that candidate.
00:11:28.75\00:11:30.84
You can
contribute to that candidate.
00:11:30.85\00:11:32.35
You can write letters to
the editor for that candidate.
00:11:32.36\00:11:34.49
You never have your
money used for an opponent.
00:11:34.50\00:11:37.64
Organized labor takes
compulsory duce. That's true.
00:11:37.65\00:11:40.84
Forced by the
government and uses it
00:11:40.85\00:11:42.97
to support candidates who they--
00:11:42.98\00:11:45.24
that is who the
employee does not choose.
00:11:45.25\00:11:47.76
And so I think the
religious liberty issue
00:11:47.77\00:11:51.33
these days for a Christian
who is serious is to say,
00:11:51.34\00:11:54.35
"You know, I'm gonna
stand apart from a labor union.
00:11:54.36\00:11:57.11
I'm not gonna be
a part of a system
00:11:57.12\00:11:59.56
that I think is
contrary to the gospel."
00:11:59.57\00:12:01.46
Proponents of religious freedom
00:12:03.68\00:12:06.21
are involved in what onlookers
00:12:06.22\00:12:08.20
might think are
indefensible actions.
00:12:08.21\00:12:11.61
Very often defending
religious freedom means
00:12:11.62\00:12:14.63
defending those who
may seem on the wrong side
00:12:14.64\00:12:17.69
of the fence on
religious liberty issues.
00:12:17.70\00:12:19.80
Bruce Cameron, I think, has
explained very clearly though
00:12:21.00\00:12:25.22
the moral
principle behind our churches
00:12:25.23\00:12:27.88
stands on trade unions.
00:12:27.89\00:12:30.21
There is a restriction
of individual choice.
00:12:30.22\00:12:32.76
There is a readiness to subvert
00:12:32.77\00:12:36.04
the individual's faith
stance to a majoritarian opinion
00:12:36.05\00:12:41.59
that really at times is
turned deaf to those needs.
00:12:41.60\00:12:46.17
But as he pointed
out, there're times
00:12:46.18\00:12:47.86
when he might be
defending someone
00:12:47.87\00:12:50.17
who on the sectarian level,
00:12:50.18\00:12:51.90
we might have a
great difference with.
00:12:51.91\00:12:54.68
It may be
another faith entirely.
00:12:54.69\00:12:57.58
A faith practice that
we find even abhorrent
00:12:57.59\00:13:00.43
but it might be
necessary to defend them
00:13:00.44\00:13:03.47
against either a
trade union or a government
00:13:03.48\00:13:06.56
or a societal
attitude that would restrict
00:13:06.57\00:13:09.43
what they as a
matter of conscience
00:13:09.44\00:13:12.79
hold to be true and important.
00:13:12.80\00:13:14.60
This is our privilege in
defending religious freedom.
00:13:14.61\00:13:17.56
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:18.74\00:13:21.79