Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bruce N. Cameron
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000166A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program bringing you up to date news, views, 00:27 and discussion on religious liberty events 00:30 in the United States and around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine 00:36 and my guest on the program is Bruce Cameron 00:40 who is the Reed Larson Professor at Regent University. 00:45 Thanks, Bruce. It's great to have you on the program. 00:47 It's great to be here. 00:48 And I think we--the best thing we can start off 00:51 with is discussing one of the things that you do-- 00:54 you are not only a law professor, 00:56 you're involved with workplace 00:58 accommodation issues, aren't you? 01:00 I have a great life and not only am I able to teach 01:03 law students at the Regent University School of Law. 01:07 Regent, by the way, is an overtly Christian law school. 01:10 So I'm helping to guide young Christians 01:12 who want to go out and change the world. 01:14 So it's a glorious thing. 01:16 I'm also on staff with the National Right 01:18 to Work Legal Defense Foundation, 01:20 which has been a blessing 01:21 in my life for more than 35 years. 01:25 They have allowed me in the last 35 years 01:28 to litigate religious liberty cases on behalf of employees. 01:32 Uh, they've allowed-- they paid the bill 01:36 to pioneer the law for those employees 01:39 who've religious objections to joining 01:41 or financially supporting a labor union. 01:44 And the great news about this is someone comes to me 01:46 and says, Bruce, "I've got to choose 01:49 between my job and my conscience. 01:51 Can you help me?" 01:52 And I say, "Not only can I help you, 01:54 I can help you for free." Well. 01:56 Well, you're getting the word out there. 02:00 But, no, I'm glad you brought it up 02:01 because I was going to introduce the fact 02:04 that in my view one of the top experts on issues 02:10 of accommodation relating to labor unions, 02:12 religious accommodation and the labor unions. 02:14 I think I litigate more of those cases 02:16 in any other lawyer in the country. 02:17 And the Seventh-day Adventists, 02:18 that's more than passing interest 02:20 because we've got a historic stand, 02:24 how should I phrase it? 02:25 I hope we're not against labor unions in the classic sense, 02:29 but we're very suspicious of participating in it 02:34 because we believe that the labor union 02:36 will restrict our conscience options right? 02:39 Well, their model for operation is inconsistent 02:43 with the gospel, it seems to me. 02:45 And in fact, that's the reason why I came to the foundation. 02:49 I came there straight out of law school. 02:51 My last year of law school 02:53 I interned with the US Department of Justice 02:55 and I was looking-- I went to law school 02:58 because I wanted to serve God. 03:00 I wanted to advance the kingdom of God. 03:02 And so I wanted to go work 03:03 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 03:05 And so I sent a letter out to all of the unions saying, 03:09 "I went to the top schools. I've got top grades. 03:12 I'm willing to work for cheap. 03:14 How about hiring me?" 03:16 I think cheap that's the way we are. 03:20 There's not a lot of money in church work, 03:22 but the rewards are great. Isn't it? 03:23 I promised my wife that I would be a poor lawyer. 03:26 So she had been warned about this 03:28 when I was talking to her about marriage. 03:31 So I sent this letter out to all the unions 03:33 and they sent back letters uniformly saying, 03:37 "Either, lawyer? 03:38 We don't need a lawyer or we just hired a lawyer. 03:41 And we expect to be 10 years before we need another." 03:44 So this was quite discouraging 03:47 because I was coming into my third year of-- 03:50 third and last year of law school. 03:52 So I started looking around and in the placement office, 03:55 I saw a letter written by a gentleman 03:58 named Reed-- Rex Reed. 04:00 And Rex Reed said that he was the legal director 04:04 at the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, 04:06 never heard of them before. 04:08 But he said, "What we do is we help employees 04:12 who want to stand apart from labor unions." 04:14 I said, "Bingo." 04:15 This is one of the important religious 04:17 liberty teachings of the church, 04:20 one of the important religious 04:21 liberty problems for church members. 04:23 So I sent my resume in. 04:26 He sent me an airline ticket to fly up there. 04:29 And they hired me early in my third year. 04:32 And when I talked to them, 04:33 I said, "Here's what I'd like to do. 04:35 I would like to defend employees 04:37 who've religious objections supporting labor unions." 04:41 They basically said, "Knock yourself out." 04:43 You know, just get whatever you can find, 04:46 go ahead and litigate it. 04:47 Have you found from the beginning 04:48 that there was significant number 04:50 of Adventists in these cases? 04:52 You know from that prospective, 04:53 this is a very big thing. 04:54 But in the larger challenge 04:58 with labor unions is it just Adventists. 05:00 Are there many others? 05:01 No, in fact, this is important part of this, Lincoln. 05:04 Over the years, 05:05 I've consistently represented Adventists. 05:08 There'll be one or two every year that will come to me. 05:12 But the vast majority 05:14 of my clients are not Adventists. 05:16 You see when I started litigating these cases in 1976, 05:20 the only published cases dealt with Seventh-day Adventist 05:24 where the church teaching that said, 05:25 "Church members shouldn't be members of labor unions." 05:28 And Lee Boothby was one of the critical 05:30 lawyers that pioneered-- 05:32 He's a Seventh-day Adventist lawyer. 05:33 He's a Seventh-day Adventist lawyer 05:34 and he pioneered these early cases 05:36 for Seventh-day Adventist. 05:38 When I came on the scene, 05:39 I started to pioneer an expansion of the law 05:45 that would protect employees of faith. 05:46 For example, an early case for me 05:49 where I was helping out was the council of record 05:52 at the US Supreme Court was a case 05:54 Called IAM versus Boeing 05:57 involved an employee named, Josephine Nichols. 05:59 Josephine Nichols held this-- 06:02 she held the same religious beliefs 06:04 as a Seventh-day Adventist. 06:05 As she thought she could not be a member 06:07 of a labor union anytime, anyplace, anywhere 06:10 because their method of dealing with the employer. 06:13 She was not an Adventist. 06:15 She wasn't even a member of her own church. 06:17 And so the case went up and the question was, 06:21 was she entitled to a religious accommodation 06:23 and the court said, 'Yes.' 06:25 The United States Court of Appeals 06:26 for the Ninth Circuit, said, 'Yes.' 06:28 So that was the first step to broaden the-- 06:31 Can I interject on this? Sure. 06:32 On this to get a religious accommodation. 06:35 On most accommodation issues, 06:37 I've understood that it isn't necessary 06:39 to have to prove that your church holds that position. 06:43 It's that you as a matter of religious conscience 06:46 or even just as a matter of conscience 06:48 feel that you cannot participate 06:51 in this case for the unions. Isn't that the case? 06:52 That is a correct statement of the law 06:54 but see this was part of the work 06:56 that the foundation was funding to pioneer that point. Yeah. 07:00 Because if you talk to some union officials today, 07:05 they will say, "If you have religious objections 07:07 to supporting a union, your church has to teach that." 07:11 And the reason why they say 07:12 that is that there're a number of statutes 07:15 in the United States, which are unconstitutional. 07:17 I've had at least two of them declared unconstitutional. 07:20 Which say, "Well, if you're a member of a church, 07:23 you're entitled to a religious accommodation." 07:25 That is a member of a church which has teachings on unions. 07:27 But if you're not, you don't have protection. 07:31 You know, the reason you might not guessed 07:32 why I asked that question, 07:34 I think and we could have another program about 07:37 it that it's not impossible down the line 07:40 based on some of the dynamics 07:41 that I see and not least which the war on terror 07:45 and some of the things implied there. 07:47 That the US may end up doing in a defective 07:50 if not a formal way what Europe has done. 07:53 And designate certain mainline church positions 07:58 as acceptable and some off the table. Yes. 08:02 And if it's then only a matter of-- 08:05 if it has to be backed up by a particular church belief 08:09 that sounds okay now, 08:10 but what if your church is not recognized? 08:12 What if the-- It's better 08:13 when it's a matter of personal conscience-- 08:16 That's-- And that under the constitution 08:18 that's to be respected. 08:19 That's exactly right, Lincoln. No question. 08:22 The point--the focal point for the issue of religious freedom 08:27 should be what do I believe, 08:28 not what does my church believe, 08:30 what have I been instructed and it's my conscience 08:33 after all that's important. 08:35 So Josephine Nichols was-- Yes. 08:37 Sorry-- The first--no, no. 08:40 This is important point. 08:41 So Josephine Nichols was the first step outside 08:45 just protecting Seventh-day Adventist. 08:48 The next step was I got a call from a fellow 08:51 who was a Roman Catholic and he said to me, 08:54 "I've been fired because I had religious objections 08:58 to supporting the union." 09:00 And so I said, "Tell me about this 09:02 because the Roman Catholic Churches often viewed 09:05 as being in favor of union." 09:07 Well, certainly in the Pope Benedict's 09:11 fairly recent document Caritas in Veritate, 09:14 he goes out of his way to argue 09:16 in favor of the rights of union organization. 09:19 I'm sure you're aware of that. 09:20 Well, it's--I'm aware of a number of the encyclicals 09:24 and it's a much more nuance issue than that. 09:26 Well, he takes both sides. 09:28 It's a document that addresses capital and labor. 09:32 It addresses sovereign issues of national concern. 09:38 It addresses people movements, 09:39 economic collapse, and so on. 09:40 And yes, the whole-- it's the whole spectrum. 09:42 But it seems to me, he does go out of his way 09:45 to appear to be on the side of the union cause. 09:49 Being able to choose a union 09:52 if you want to and that it seems to me 09:54 is a fundamental American freedom. 09:57 I mean, all of us have the freedom to choose 09:59 whatever church we want to join and support. 10:02 Everyone has a freedom in the United States 10:04 to choose what union they want to join and support. 10:07 It's not the same as collective bargaining 10:09 and exclusive representation 10:10 where you block other people from being hurt. 10:13 But joining a union is a fundamental right 10:17 it seems to me under the first amendment. 10:19 You were telling about this woman 10:20 that was a reverent catholic. 10:21 Well, let's talk about the Catholic Church 10:24 though a bit more. 10:25 Catholic Church though says in and this is the encyclicals 10:32 called Longinqua by Pope Leo XIII. 10:34 There's another called Rerum Novarum, 10:37 which said in essence that if you are a Catholic 10:41 and you want to join a union that's fine. 10:44 But don't join a union, 10:46 which compromises fundamental moral principles. 10:50 And I think what they were talking about was Catholics 10:53 who join labor unions composed of Catholics. 10:56 And so I think that, that was the original point. 10:58 So does that apply today? 11:01 Here's the problem for my client. 11:03 The union that was seeking to represent my client 11:06 and ended up being able to represent him 11:08 was the National Education Association 11:11 which is the largest labor union in the United States. 11:13 And it stayed affiliate to Michigan Education Association. 11:17 The NEA is a strong pro-abortion lobby. 11:21 I mean it's very clear that it promotes abortion, 11:26 it promotes gay marriage. 11:27 It promotes a number of issues which, you know, 11:31 hit the radar of a lot of conservative Christians. 11:35 Well, Catholics of course, are pro-life 11:38 and so my Catholic guy was told 11:40 that he had to either join the NEA 11:43 or pay its fees or be fired. 11:46 And when he found out, he didn't know this at first. 11:48 When he found out that the NEA was a pro-abortion lobby, 11:52 he said, "I can't do this." 11:54 Now here's the part that will amaze your audience. 11:57 My guy was working for a Jesuit University. 12:03 He was working for the University of Detroit. 12:06 And the Jesuit said to him, 12:08 "You have to either join this union, 12:10 pay its fees, or be fired." 12:12 And when he said, "No, 12:14 I am going to show allegiance 12:16 to the teachings of the church on pro-life-- 12:19 So this is a house divided against itself. 12:21 That's right a Jesuit fired him. 12:24 I had the great joy of deposing 12:28 that Jesuit who fired him. 12:29 I went straight after that guy. 12:32 I was cross examining him on the encyclicals and-- 12:38 We will talk about more 12:39 of your experiences after the break. 12:41 Please stay with us. We'll be back shortly. |
Revised 2014-12-17